Team shape, tactics and personnel

[Marka Ragnos]

3 hours ago, tinker said:

I agree, it's not the highline,  it's a lack of pressing/closing down that's the real issue and that showed out in general play and in the first goal, which was just a massive mess up, no one near him.

Largely correct if not the whole story. Diego went out after 16 minutes. It was a massive blow and you can see it, as clear as day, on the Liverpool replay. There was a change in tone, a lowering of aggression levels, and players losing their composure. Not saying your and @IrishVilla10's assessments aren't right, but that conditions and general team vibe were all **** up, too, once again, after losing a centre back against strong, organised opposition.

[Marka Ragnos]

Respectfully, I think any Villa supporter who believes Unai is going to change his basic approach will find out that's not going to happen, and personally, that's fine with me. He doesn't change tactics due to injuries or fan complaints. End of story. He would be more inclined to coach a younger player into a role and re-constitute his system after an injury, if that makes sense? 

I feel like one has to look at the man's career very closely. That means listening to his interviews in Spanish, where you get a far more complete picture of just who Unai is. I think, in English, Unai can come across as a kind of gentlemanly genius who likes to talk about the Villa "family," etc, but in Spanish, you really get the force of his ambition and self-belief and also the highly structured way he thinks of every inch of the pitch. He's so unlike Gerrard! He never uses "vibes" or "belief" or "playing freely" as substitutes for meticulously detailed planning -- and that perhaps is his Achilles heel, too, but I'll take it. Even if he didn't use a high line, he will still be thinking through how every tooth on every cogwheel matches up with every tooth of every other cogwheel on the pitch. I like it. It's a challenging approach, but with where we're at as a club, overall, I think it's a perfect fit for us.

 

Edited September 4, 2023 by Marka Ragnos

[Dale]

Cannot wait for Moreno to return. Digne is fine where we dominate, but with Pau being a little slow. We need recovery pace from our LB and Digne has none. 

[cheltenham_villa]

The bit that has surprised me is last year we took good away results by absorbing early pressure and not letting the other team score. Not always playing the same way. This works so well at places like anfield and st James' park where you can turn the crowd. 

Not sure why we've abandoned that. 

[Anything11]

have said it in a number of other threads - with the injuries to key players and new players to bed in the baselines confidence in our structure has taken a hit

we see that come out against the better teams when the intensity is ramped up. some players are playing with authority and  belief that we are used to witnessing 

it will take some time

[CVByrne]

Key take aways for me. We need to get a stable back 4 to get used to the system. For me it's going to be 4 of the following 5

Moreno Pau Carlos Konsa Cash depending on opposition. They need time to get used to eachother and critically Pau and Carlos need to learn the Premier League.

The high line takes understanding and practice, look at last season where we had it fail dramatically and then succeeded incredibly. 

Conceding early and losing a key CB in our last two very difficult away games. We can't learn anything from that at this stage of the season. The next 3 months have lots of good games to test and learn. 

Key players like Ramsey and Moreno returning will be a big boost too. Hopefully we can keep injury to a minimum and keep our excellent home record running as that's a bedrock of a top side. 

[TRO]

17 hours ago, OutByEaster? said:

@TRO it's hard to know what those figures mean without a source.

Is it days missed by players?

Games missed by players?

Number of reported injuries?

Without some sort of context it's meaningless - can you add anything or cite a source?

 

Sorry, I understand your point.....but even in its basic form, we can glean Liverpool are worst and Brighton are best....and Villa was pretty well better off than most.

it seems Aston Villa4 has kindly posted the source.

[TRO]

12 hours ago, cheltenham_villa said:

The bit that has surprised me is last year we took good away results by absorbing early pressure and not letting the other team score. Not always playing the same way. This works so well at places like anfield and st James' park where you can turn the crowd. 

Not sure why we've abandoned that. 

We seem to have drifted in to a team waiting for things to happen, and not going after the opposition.....its smacks of passive.

we need to eek out a more aggressive and energetic approach.

[Kiwivillan]

12 hours ago, cheltenham_villa said:

The bit that has surprised me is last year we took good away results by absorbing early pressure and not letting the other team score. Not always playing the same way. This works so well at places like anfield and st James' park where you can turn the crowd. 

Not sure why we've abandoned that. 

Liverpool first goal was offside, several neutral pundits have said as much and we got significant early injuries to team spine early on both games. Those were write offs for most teams. No point dwelling on 

[cheltenham_villa]

2 hours ago, Kiwivillan said:

Liverpool first goal was offside, several neutral pundits have said as much and we got significant early injuries to team spine early on both games. Those were write offs for most teams. No point dwelling on 

not dwelling on results. Im interested in the change of approach (thats what this threads about). Last year we would go away to the top 6-8 and we would look to absorb pressure and play on the break. Now were trying to press high up the pitch and dominate the ball. Im not sure were ready for that yet and maybe we should balance our approach with the things we did well last year.

[Kiwivillan]

17 minutes ago, cheltenham_villa said:

not dwelling on results. Im interested in the change of approach (thats what this threads about). Last year we would go away to the top 6-8 and we would look to absorb pressure and play on the break. Now were trying to press high up the pitch and dominate the ball. Im not sure were ready for that yet and maybe we should balance our approach with the things we did well last year.

One of the greatest maxims in football I believe to be true is newly formed CB partnerships will struggle. You see it time and again. When we signed Torres I posted we should stick with Mings Konsa starting first few games. Now that can't happen. We have to be patient and hope for the best even if that means taking a few losses on the chin

[cheltenham_villa]

1 hour ago, Kiwivillan said:

One of the greatest maxims in football I believe to be true is newly formed CB partnerships will struggle. You see it time and again. When we signed Torres I posted we should stick with Mings Konsa starting first few games. Now that can't happen. We have to be patient and hope for the best even if that means taking a few losses on the chin

Could we protect Torres more by dropping such a high line? We know hes not pacey. Especially for the first 20-30 minutes or the tougher away games when we know teams will come at us. It will be interesting to see what happens in our next away, teams will have seen a little fragility i think if we go behind. 

The loss of Carlos probably didnt help us either. 

[DJBOB]

In many ways, we lost as soon as the team sheets were released. 
 
The defensive concerns were obvious to me because of the new pairing and mismatched back 4. Less obvious to me was our struggle in the buildup when we had done so well on the back end of last season. 
 
But it’s a case of circumstance (injuries and two teams with good pressing structure), personnel (players in the wrong positions - namely Cash and McGinn) and for the second away game in a row against a top opponent, tactics (Unai sticking with the wrong personnel for the build up).

 The image was Liverpool’s pressing structure until they were 2-0 up. Jones and Szobo man marked our double pivot. Behind them is Mac Allister marking the number 10 space and then Trent and Robertson man marking the wide mids and following them aggressively  

The trigger press is when they passed back to Martinez. Nunez would make a curved run, cutting off the pass back to the keeper while Salah would mark ahead of Digne, cutting off the easy pass. Diaz would come in on Diego so while Konsa would be open, Villa would need to work a combination to get there.

You can even see the technical variation to marking Luiz and Kamara. Szobo is on the ball side so he marks ahead of Luiz to cut off the easy pass while Curtis Jones is behind Kamara, ready to pressure Kamara but also ready to recover if Luiz gets slipped in behind.

This is where the loss of Moreno really hurts us as Digne does not do well against this high press, dribbling out of it and taking away the pressure. His natural inclination is to go down the line.

The knock on effect of injuries has McGinn at LM, a duel that I think he should have won against a defensively weak Trent, but whereas JJ torched him last year, McGinn wanted to turn left when he received the ball - right into Trent’s path.

A professional footballer should be able to go both directions but for some players, they are just stronger going a certain direction. These are not like for like comparisons but there’s a reason Jack Grealish plays almost exclusively LW. Why Mahrez and Salah exclusively played RW. And why McGinn, against difficult opponents - must be played on the right side of the field.

Cash at RM cutting in - not even in the top 5 of the squad that can do that. At RB, I think he’s actually better than Digne (but not Moreno) at dribbling out of trouble, but by then it was too late at 2-0 up.

 

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by DJBOB

[TRO]

On 03/09/2023 at 18:57, Delphinho123 said:

The high line and the defence in general are two huge issues for him. Mings was awesome at it and could recover with his pace and strength even when it failed. Torres doesn’t have that pace and a few fancy passes aside, I’m not quite sure what his defensive attributes are. He’s slow, weak and apparently not great in the air either. They are the three things I’d look for in a centre half before even considering how good they are on the ball.

Maybe I’m a dinosaur and just don’t ‘get it’ but a high line with Torres and Carlos is going to cost us big this season unless we change. 

I’m all for controlling games and building from the back but mistakes at the back are being exposed and we’ve conceded a lot of goals in the first 4 matches. 

I have full faith in Emery to fix it, as long as he isn’t stubborn. He’s been dealt a cruel hand with early injuries to Mings, Moreno and Ramsey and we’re feeling that. Torres at £36m should be able to deputise for Mings but right now, he’s miles off it. 

We just feel unbalanced at the moment. McGinn is far better on the right of midfield and it just seems to throw the team off having to play Bailey on the right or playing this 3-5-2. Again, all for a 3-5-2 formation but it feels cobbled together to mask the deficiencies we have in the back line. We’ll still be able to beat half the teams in the league regardless of system - given the quality we have - but it’s tough being battered by teams we should be more competitive against in Liverpool and Newcastle.

I’m rambling. 

I think there are many issues but here's a few as I see it....this list ( positive and negative)is just off the cuff and not exhaustive.

all my opinons ,of course.

• To play the highline against top sides, you have to have personnel who can "go after" the opposition, particularly the player launching the long ball. i.e  Schar and Trent respectively.
• Mings attributes are lost, since his absence and we did not sign a CB with similar skills.....we are vulnerable with the high ball in to the box, not to mention his aggression and organisation skills
• We are currently not engaging in a full press and this gives the opposition time and space on the ball to perfect their passing....it also raises the belief in the opposition, and shifts the initiative to the more aggressive player.
• We do not employ enough players in the squad with natural defensive skills, too many deployed are better offensive minded players....this leaves what few we do have exposed.
• New signings will inevitably take time to gel, but we must hope they can adapt to what many feel is an arduous and combative league.....its not for the faint-hearted.
• for many reasons, we are getting caught on the ball, and losing it, thus negating any attacking intentions we have...this affects confidence and when we are played in, we over play the move and muff it.
• We miss the energy and pest value of Emi Buendia
• We miss the ball carrying, intelligent running,and finishing of JJ
• Kamara seems to be missing his ball winning attributes and appetite to engage....he has to make a better fist of protecting the back line.
• Ollie needs to find a more aggressive streak, to give defenders a hard time, its currently too easy for them....He should be using the "turnover" to supplement chances, by creating some of his own.
• At set pieces we look weak in the air.
• We are currently exposing a top class goal keeper, whose confidence will be challenged.
• Our full backs (3) are of a offensive skill set, defensively questionable.....this is a test to the defensive resolve of the team.
• Duran and Zaniolo do offer a bit of presence up front.

I think Mings's attributes have been under estimated, and a similar kind/type should have been sought like a Botman or someone with aerial prowess....To only have 1 or 2 players in the squad who can head the ball with aplomb, is naive, imo.

I am not unhappy or criticising the players we have bought or their types....I just think a few more pragmatic additions may have been helpful.

 

 

Edited September 5, 2023 by TRO

[TRO]

5 hours ago, Kiwivillan said:

One of the greatest maxims in football I believe to be true is newly formed CB partnerships will struggle. You see it time and again. When we signed Torres I posted we should stick with Mings Konsa starting first few games. Now that can't happen. We have to be patient and hope for the best even if that means taking a few losses on the chin

The way I see it is......many thought Torres would be an upgrade on Mings.....seemingly failing to see, they are blessed with a different skill set.

Mings may not have the silky passing skills or creative vision of Torres.....but Torres ( so Far) doesn't have the aggressive aerial power, organisational defensive presence or leadership skills of Mings.

So right now, we have made gains and encountered Losses.

We have now signed another Centre Back with a reputation of a similar skill set to Torres....make of that what you will.

Injuries are always a source of mitigation, but we have to help ourselves through times like this, by making the most of it, and setting out a balance, like we did last season.

 

[TRO]

4 hours ago, DJBOB said:

In many ways, we lost as soon as the team sheets were released. 
 
The defensive concerns were obvious to me because of the new pairing and mismatched back 4. Less obvious to me was our struggle in the buildup when we had done so well on the back end of last season. 
 
But it’s a case of circumstance (injuries and two teams with good pressing structure), personnel (players in the wrong positions - namely Cash and McGinn) and for the second away game in a row against a top opponent, tactics (Unai sticking with the wrong personnel for the build up).

 The image was Liverpool’s pressing structure until they were 2-0 up. Jones and Szobo man marked our double pivot. Behind them is Mac Allister marking the number 10 space and then Trent and Robertson man marking the wide mids and following them aggressively  

The trigger press is when they passed back to Martinez. Nunez would make a curved run, cutting off the pass back to the keeper while Salah would mark ahead of Digne, cutting off the easy pass. Diaz would come in on Diego so while Konsa would be open, Villa would need to work a combination to get there.

You can even see the technical variation to marking Luiz and Kamara. Szobo is on the ball side so he marks ahead of Luiz to cut off the easy pass while Curtis Jones is behind Kamara, ready to pressure Kamara but also ready to recover if Luiz gets slipped in behind.

This is where the loss of Moreno really hurts us as Digne does not do well against this high press, dribbling out of it and taking away the pressure. His natural inclination is to go down the line.

The knock on effect of injuries has McGinn at LM, a duel that I think he should have won against a defensively weak Trent, but whereas JJ torched him last year, McGinn wanted to turn left when he received the ball - right into Trent’s path.

A professional footballer should be able to go both directions but for some players, they are just stronger going a certain direction. These are not like for like comparisons but there’s a reason Jack Grealish plays almost exclusively LW. Why Mahrez and Salah exclusively played RW. And why McGinn, against difficult opponents - must be played on the right side of the field.

Cash at RM cutting in - not even in the top 5 of the squad that can do that. At RB, I think he’s actually better than Digne (but not Moreno) at dribbling out of trouble, but by then it was too late at 2-0 up.

 

 

You make some good and meanigful observations....and I think it is, questionable for us to put too much emphasis on injuries....I think prepared right, we could have dug out a draw.

We have to remember (and I am so Appreciative of Mings's attributes) we was 2-0 down when he went off injured at St James's.....that for me heads back to " we don't go after teams enough"......we simply cannot allow these teams to rock up, and their best players be on their "A" game when they play us.....They play us and MOTD have them as world beaters only to be brought back down to earth the next match, where some journeyman says " They ain't doing that to me" and shuts them out.

There are a few over riding thoughts....they were much better prepared "off the ball" and appreciated the art of pressing and marking, we in  contrast was less prepared for the task of stopping them.

Its crystal clear to me, when we are "allowed" to play, we are impressive......when we are pressurized we falter, quite badly.....its got to be an issue UE has to work on, because Unai is a proponent of good defensive play....He has to tighten up, against the better sides

I agree with your first line, and that fills me with woe.

Edited September 5, 2023 by TRO

[IrishVilla10]

 

[TRO]

We can all talk until the cows come home......but some of the old quotes still ring true, to me.

" You have to win the right, to play football"

wraps it up in a nutshell.

maybe we need a few more, who can wins us that right.

[DJBOB]

23 minutes ago, TRO said:

You make some good and meanigful observations....and I think it is, questionable for us to put too much emphasis on injuries....I think prepared right, we could have dug out a draw.

We have to remember (and I am so Appreciative of Mings's attributes) we was 2-0 down when he went off injured at St James's.....that for me heads back to " we don't go after teams enough"......we simply cannot allow these teams to rock up, and their best players be on their "A" game when they play us.....They play us and MOTD have them as world beaters only to be brought back down to earth the next match, where some journeyman says " They ain't doing that to me" and shuts them out.

There are a few over riding thoughts....they were much better prepared "off the ball" and appreciated the art of pressing and marking, we in  contrast was less prepared for the task of stopping them.

Its crystal clear to me, when we are "allowed" to play, we are impressive......when we are pressurized we falter, quite badly.....its got to be an issue UE has to work on, because Unai is proponent of good defensive play....He has to tighten up, against the better sides

I agree with your first line, and that fills me with woe.

Yes - agreed - UE needs to figure it out. I trust that he will but similar to your post above - this is an incomplete team without Mings and Buendia - two fighters lost in the defense and midfield. There is a certain Villa-esque stroke of bad luck here. Our first European competition in ages and finally a good coach to back it up and two catastrophic injuries strike two of our most important players in different phases of the game. Of course, it had to be Villa.

But UE has coached himself out of various injury problems before and must swallow some of his pride when eyeing an opponent and work with the tools he has. Diaby is electric on the ball facing forward but even against Hibs, didn't have the natural inclination playing back to goal and goes through the motions out of possession. McGinn has been a revelation under UE but has never played as well on the left as he has on the right. The quandary at the wide midfielder positions he must figure out depending on the opponent now that he is missing both of his first options in JJ and Buendia.

And of course - a back line that has not remained the same at the end of 4 league games in a row now.

Edited September 5, 2023 by DJBOB

[TRO]

3 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

Yes - agreed - UE needs to figure it out. I trust that he will but similar to your post above - this is an incomplete team without Mings and Buendia. There is a certain Villa-esque stroke of bad luck here. Our first European competition in ages and finally a good coach to back it up and two catastrophic injuries strike two of our most important players in different phases of the game. Of course, it had to be Villa.

But UE has coached himself out of various injury problems before and must swallow some of his pride when eyeing an opponent and work with the tools he has. Diaby is electric on the ball facing forward but even against Hibs, didn't have the natural inclination playing back to goal and goes through the motions out of possession. McGinn has been a revelation under UE but has never played as well on the left as he has on the right. The quandary at the wide midfielder positions he must figure out depending on the opponent now that he is missing both of his first options in JJ and Buendia.

And of course - a back line that has not remained the same at the end of 4 league games in a row now.

I am only being devils advocate, thats all.....but Mings and Buendia was not everyones cup of tea, not long ago.

I am less concerned about personnel and more about collective attitude and set up......if as I have suggested " we don't go after players and just wait for players to make a mistake, if we don't force errors from the opponent and just wait for them to mis place a pass.......what are really expecting to achieve?...........benevolence, a teams off day, a bunch of off form opponents.....what exactly.

If we are to pursue improvement, we have to compete, and that means marking, pressing, and winning the ball in turn overs......it's as clear as daylight to me.......UE has to get them competing, without the ball, not JUST with the ball.

We can all come up with theories as to why these things are not happening, and some could be right.....but that why we are being bullied, because we are failing to bully back...or engaging in it.

Look, if we compete, and lose......who's going to criticise that, better teams are entitled to win....but when discerning fans see quite obvious shortfalls, we're entitled to say so.

He has 2 weeks to address it, and for us to come out fighting....fighting for that ball.