Israel, Palestine and Iran

[meregreen]

5 minutes ago, El Segundo said:

Has anyone said any different?

You did. You said you they didn’t have a right to those lands, and should go somewhere else.

[El Segundo]

4 minutes ago, meregreen said:

You did. You said you they didn’t have a right to those lands, and should go somewhere else.

Where did I say that?

[Tumblerseven]

4 minutes ago, El Segundo said:

Are you going to answer my question - on what basis do you think Israel has a the right to exist in those lands?

They had the right to exist in the 1948 because they came into a free land with some Palestinian villagers and decided to build a country over there.

I dont believe in inherent right or ownership to the land so if you will try to argue that Palestinian villagers had a land in there and they lived in there. I dont care they should have built a country.

[meregreen]

43 minutes ago, El Segundo said:

 

The key part is "in those lands".  Most of that land, even excluding the Gaza and the West Bank, belonged to Palestinians and was unfairly taken away from them.  I do not believe Israel ever had a right to be given, or to take those lands. I don't support the right of any people or country to exist in land that has been stolen from other people.     

 

Second, not believing in Israel's right to exist in those lands does not entail that I think Israel has no right to exist anywhere. From what I've read, other locations were considered by the Zionist movement for a Jewish homeland.  If land anywhere, including Palestine, had been acquired fairly and without prejudice to set up a Jewish Homeland  then they would have every right to exist there.      

 

Seems pretty explicit to me what your implying. Or do you now think that Israel should remain where it is.

[meregreen]

2 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said:

They had the right to exist in the 1948 because they came into a free land with some Palestinian villagers and decided to build a country over there.

I dont believe in inherent right or ownership to the land so if you will try to argue that Palestinian villagers had a land in there and they lived in there. I dont care they should have built a country.

Your last bit is hard to argue. Both the Ottomans and latterly the British would hardly have allowed that to happen.

[meregreen]

Think I’ll bow out of this thread. Opinions are pretty entrenched, and life’s too short.

[El Segundo]

Just now, meregreen said:

Seems pretty explicit to me what your implying. Or do you now think that Israel should remain where it is.

Can you point to where I have said they should go somewhere else?   You won't be able to because I've not said it.  I've just said they are not there by right. In the sense of moral or legal right. What you infer from that is down to you nut I have neither said nor implied it.

I don't "now think" anything.  Israel is too well established and embedded for it to go anywhere, and to advocate it would be nonsensical. I don't believe anything I've said contradicts that view.  

[Tumblerseven]

12 minutes ago, meregreen said:

 Both the Ottomans and latterly the British would hardly have allowed that to happen.

So what happenes to a country or a system who cant fight off external pressures? they vanish that is the harsh reality.

What happens to a worker who cant compete or keep up with the job he gets fired! What happens to the restaurant that cant compete or keep up with the market it get shut down. Does world owe that worker a job and that restaurant a business? NO  

I dont understand why some people think that world owes Palestinians a Palestine. If they cant build it if they cant fight off external world pressures its their problem. World doesnt owe them a country.

Edited November 5, 2023 by Tumblerseven

[bickster]

1 minute ago, El Segundo said:

In the sense of … or legal right.

You keep saying this and it is demonstrably untrue. They absolutely do have a right to be there in international law. Israel is a country recognised by most countries in the world and is a member of the UN. The idea that Israel has no legal right to exist is utterly false.

[El Segundo]

16 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said:

They had the right to exist in the 1948 because they came into a free land with some Palestinian villagers and decided to build a country over there.

I dont believe in inherent right or ownership to the land so if you will try to argue that Palestinian villagers had a land in there and they lived in there. I dont care they should have built a country.

How was it a free land when it was occupied and run by the British until 1948 and then Israel took over? 

Some Palestinian Villagers? Is that how you would describe >90% of the population at the time?

On your last point you do realise that if you adopt that as a principle then any people could simply go and occupy any other land, take over and kick out the indigenous people as they see fit.  Which is Colonialism.  You think that's ok then do you?  

[bickster]

4 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said:

So what happenes to a country or a system who cant fight off external pressures? they vanish that is the harsh 

The Crusades ended a long time ago. We live in a world that has moved beyond such ideas. It’s why we have the UN. Admittedly it’s almost useless but the idea that failing states getting subsumed by their more powerful neighbours ended some time ago. World consensus has largely moved away from those concepts now.

[El Segundo]

4 minutes ago, bickster said:

You keep saying this and it is demonstrably untrue. They absolutely do have a right to be there in international law. Israel is a country recognised by most countries in the world and is a member of the UN. The idea that Israel has no legal right to exist is utterly false.

The UN resolution of 1948 awarding Israel 56% of the land was in breach of Article 22 of their own charter relating to the rights of all people to self govern, i.e. denying the Palestinians that right.  The entire Arab world rejected that resolution for that reason.  The countries who recognise Israel would be most likely be the same countries who voted for that illegal resolution. I suppose even a corrupt UN resolution does make it legal, on paper at least.  But I and many others don't recognise it.   

The UN has condemned the expansion and establishment of settlements in previously Palestinian areas. As have most other countries.  Various UN resolutions to end that have been ignored by Israel. sSo in at least some of "those lands" they have no legal right to be there.        

[bickster]

Just now, El Segundo said:

The UN resolution of 1948 awarding Israel 56% of the land was in breach of Article 22 of their own charter relating to the rights of all people to self govern, i.e. denying the Palestinians that right.  The entire Arab world rejected that resolution for that reason.  The countries who recognise Israel would be most likely be the same countries who voted for that illegal resolution. I suppose even a corrupt UN resolution does make it legal, on paper at least.  But I and many others don't recognise it.   

The UN has condemned the expansion and establishment of settlements in previously Palestinian areas. As have most other countries.  Various UN resolutions to end that have been ignored by Israel. sSo in at least some of "those lands" they have no legal right to be there.        

It’s 2023, that absolutely irrelevant at this juncture

I’m not saying the UN is fit for purpose

What you and others choose to recognise is absolutely irrelevant. Israel exists and the fact that it does and should continue to needs to be a accepted before any meaningful dialogue can take place.

Israel is an internationally recognised legal entity at this stage, arguing about the legality of what happened in 1947 is somewhat irrelevant. 

[Mr_Dogg]

28 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said:

So what happenes to a country or a system who cant fight off external pressures? they vanish that is the harsh reality.

What happens to a worker who cant compete or keep up with the job he gets fired! What happens to the restaurant that cant compete or keep up with the market it get shut down. Does world owe that worker a job and that restaurant a business? NO  

I dont understand why some people think that world owes Palestinians a Palestine. If they cant build it if they cant fight off external world pressures its their problem. World doesnt owe them a country.

What on earth are you saying?

You are advocating survival of the fittest but for countries.

If the US stepped away from supporting Israel, the Arab nations could wipe out the country but that would be simply tough with your world view?

[Chindie]

There's a great hypocrisy in someone advocating for a nation that was literally gifted it's existence also saying Palestine doesn't deserve to exist.

I mean hypocrisy and **** disgusting, but here we are. We aren't playing on a level discourse playing field.

[Tumblerseven]

7 hours ago, Tumblerseven said:

I do believe that israel and palestine have the right to exist.

This is some crazy stuff happening where people like @Mr_Dogg and @Chindie and others purposefully trying to misunderstand me and ignore what i am actually saying and just trying to demonize me and paint me like an evil person. I dont think thats acceptable. Stop trying to put words in my mouth. :)

Edited November 5, 2023 by Tumblerseven

[Mr_Dogg]

Just now, Tumblerseven said:

This is some crazy stuff happening where people like @Mr_Dogg and @Chindie purposefully trying to misunderstand me and ignore what i am actually saying and just try to demonize me and paint me like an evil person. I dont think thats acceptable. Stop trying to put words in my mouth. :)

If it is misinterpreted, it's because your posting style is rambling and confusing.

[Tumblerseven]

1 minute ago, Mr_Dogg said:

If it is misinterpreted, it's because your posting style is rambling and confusing.

My statement: So what happenes to a country or a system who cant fight off external pressures? they vanish that is the harsh reality.

Your delusion: You are advocating survival of the fittest but for countries.

Just stop ok

[Mr_Dogg]

1 minute ago, Tumblerseven said:

My statement: So what happenes to a country or a system who cant fight off external pressures? they vanish that is the harsh reality.

Your delusion: You are advocating survival of the fittest but for countries.

Just stop ok

No, I don't know what else that can mean.

[chrisp65]

8 hours ago, Tumblerseven said:

So i dont think that population cleansing is inherently a bad thing. 

 

5 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said:

This is some crazy stuff happening where people like @Mr_Dogg and @Chindie and others purposefully trying to misunderstand me and ignore what i am actually saying and just trying to demonize me and paint me like an evil person. I dont think thats acceptable. Stop trying to put words in my mouth. :)