Jareth Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 28 minutes ago, Tumblerseven said: I listen to some people in this forum Fascinated to know which ones 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 2 hours ago, Jareth said: I think there is also just an innate inability to see the world any differently. Yes it's a very effective media operation (as witnessed by anybody backing a recent socialist candidate for PM) but I get the impression that the Gaza Palestinian problem was in the eyes of the Israeli gov, a forgotten problem. The lapse of security that missed the planning and execution of the Hamas attack spoke of a government that had written off the issue - forgotten the 2 million odd people that are squeezed into that strip. That anyone thought to hold a rave 2 km from the border of Gaza feels as though they hadn't considered the geography a security issue. And now that the world is saying hey what about the people of Gaza - well the Israeli gov still appear to be saying - so what?. Ah, the good old victim blame card. I feel we've come very short when you actually think the people at a festival are at fault for the geographic proximity to the Gaza strip. New lows created every day. 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 Just now, magnkarl said: I feel we've come very short when you actually think the people at a festival are at fault for the geographic proximity to the Gaza strip. New lows created every day. The organisers of that festival actually - what was the risk assessment? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 (edited) 2 hours ago, villa89 said: Israel have a program of very aggressively attacking anything that sympathises with Palestine or criticises Israel. They have trained "debaters" who immediately react and attack whoever dared say something they don't like. Words like Nazi, Holocaust, Terrorist, anti-semitic are trotted out over and over again to make people scared to fight back for fear of being labelled a jew hater. It's been a well established government policy for decades. Media outlets never have to look hard for an Israeli spokesman. So does Hamas/Iran, in case you didn't know. Some examples if you will, all three have at some point been MPs of a democratic U.K. The hypocrisy of working for a state that kills women for dancing, hangs gay people from cranes and enforces sharia law, while talking about rights is as hyperbolic as anyone working for Israel's PR-department. Edited October 25, 2023 by magnkarl 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thug Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 1 minute ago, Tumblerseven said: I am sorry general i cant im just a private tell me more how war of attrition doesn't exist please. Ok, dear private. I did not say that ‘war of attrition’ is a concept that does not exist. I do think that if you believe this current conflict to genuinely be a war of attrition then I shall need to post hundreds upon hundreds of ROFL emojis. So I ask you to reaffirm your GENUINE belief, that this is a war of attrition so that I can stop debating with you and forgive your previous posts based on some previous brain injury or similar explanation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, Jareth said: The organisers of that festival actually - what was the risk assessment? Ah, you mean the organisers who as far as I gather were mostly shot dead by terrorists as they tried to ensure that the patrons of said festival got out of harms way? Sure. Let's put the blame on them. Typical 'she ran into my fist, officer' analogy. Edited October 25, 2023 by magnkarl 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thug Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 Just now, magnkarl said: Ah, you mean the organisers who as far as I gather were mostly shot dead by terrorists as they tried to ensure that the patrons of said festival got out of harm's way? Sure. Let's put the blame on them. Typical 'she ran into my fist, officer' analogy. Yo, magnkarl. Out of curiosity… would you classify current conflict as a war of attrition? just asking, no reason. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 Just now, magnkarl said: Ah, you mean the organisers who as far as I gather were mostly shot dead by terrorists as they tried to ensure that the patrons of said festival got out of harms way? Sure. Let's put the blame on them. Typical 'she ran into my fist, officer' analogy. My point was a company organised a festival on the border to Gaza - what was their assessment of risk from locating it there? My view is that it was overlooked because Gaza had been somewhat forgotten up to that point. I'd have thought a risk assessment would state the chances of projectiles being launched over the fence as quite high - what about drones with grenades as per used in Ukraine? All very possible without anybody imagining what Hamas actually did. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 (edited) 5 minutes ago, Thug said: Yo, magnkarl. Out of curiosity… would you classify current conflict as a war of attrition? just asking, no reason. No, it is never going to be. Even if Israel manages to root out Hamas there'll be another group just as bad based on how Israel treats Gaza, and if there isn't a Gaza the same groups will be stoked by Iran in Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan and Iraq. The cycle of this thing is clear. Israel wins the short term war, only for whoever it is that wants to go next has built up enough. Then the Palestinian people pays for it undeservedly, and the cycle continues. The thing with this recent episode is that it is mainly stoked by Iran who above all else didn't want Israel and SA to normalise relations, whereby one of the pieces of the negotiation was to allow Palestine to become a nation. Iran thrives on keeping everyone in the region down, I have no clue why SA and their coalition haven't already started countering Iran harder. Edited October 25, 2023 by magnkarl 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thug Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 1 minute ago, magnkarl said: No, it is never going to be. Even if Israel manages to root out Hamas there'll be another group just as bad based on how Israel treats Gaza, and if there isn't a Gaza the same groups will be stoked by Iran in Syria, Egypt, Lebanon, Jordan and Iraq. The cycle of this thing is clear. Israel wins the short term war, only for whoever it is that wants to go next has built up enough. Then the Palestinian people pays for it undeservedly, and the cycle continues. Thanks dude. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
a-k Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 This thread has become worse than the replies on an X post Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 6 minutes ago, Jareth said: My point was a company organised a festival on the border to Gaza - what was their assessment of risk from locating it there? My view is that it was overlooked because Gaza had been somewhat forgotten up to that point. I'd have thought a risk assessment would state the chances of projectiles being launched over the fence as quite high - what about drones with grenades as per used in Ukraine? All very possible without anybody imagining what Hamas actually did. Did you ask these sort of questions about when ISIS did the same in pretty much all of Syria\Iraq\Kurdistan too? Trying to shift the blame onto the organisers of a festival of which at least 240 people were slaughtered by a terrorist group is somewhat rich. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumblerseven Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 4 minutes ago, bickster said: I literally quoted it. If you didn't mean it, why mention that Hamas were democratically elected as if it has no relevance uh oh you slipping huh? My statement: So if im not mistaken Hamas were elected in pretty democratic election by their standards in 2006 Meaning of the statement: In 2006 Hamas were democratically elected. Does that mean that they have democratic mandate in 2023? NO. did i even suggested it? NO Your statement: Hamas were elected in 2006, can you name any democratically elected government that is still in power without facing re-election in 17 years? yet you want to argue that Hamas has a democratic mandate. Can you quote me where i said i want to argue that Hamas has democratic mandate? Do you see the difference between these two statements? 1: They were democratically elected in 2006 2: They were democratically elected in 2006 and they still have democratic mandate still now? Please tell me how a country with awful lot of young people who dont like their government looks like? what do you expect to see in that country? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 2 minutes ago, magnkarl said: Did you ask these sort of questions about when ISIS did the same in pretty much all of Syria\Iraq\Kurdistan too? Trying to shift the blame onto the organisers of a festival of which at least 240 people were slaughtered by a terrorist group is somewhat rich. Well, that's your interpretation of what I said. Moving forwards I imagine there won't be any large gatherings permitted so close to the border of hostile regimes, as it would be deemed far too risky. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 1 minute ago, Jareth said: Well, that's your interpretation of what I said. Moving forwards I imagine there won't be any large gatherings permitted so close to the border of hostile regimes, as it would be deemed far too risky. Hamas have never ever risen to the brutality of what we saw on Oct 7th, they've never done an operation with the size of what we saw and they've never been very accurate with their rockets. There's very little proof to indicate that it wouldn't be safe, unless you knew about Russia\Iran's involvement with op-planning and satellite aid. There likely won't be a festival in Israel for months, let alone close to Lebanon, the West Bank or Gaza. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 (edited) 1 hour ago, Tumblerseven said: I listen to some people in this forum i have no idea what kind of politics or reality you subscribe. In my belief there cant be a fascist totalitarian government with democratic society and there cant be democratic government with fascist totalitarian society. These goverments cant exist society overthrow them in each case. With younger generation of Palestinians comment ar you implying they dont want Hamas as government? they are bunch of democratic and peaceful people huh?? I think this is again about your warped view of reality like with the look of the countries who want to survive. Please tell me how a country with awful lot of young people who dont like their government looks like? what do you expect to see in that country? 1. It's not a good idea to subscribe to any point of view. Please don't assume people do that - opinions are just that, someone who doesn't change them from time to time is not worth debating. 2. Fascist states often grow out of democratic systems. 3. Personally I don't know many Palestinians (met a few at Uni), I can only assume most are peaceful people who just want a normal life. You know, have a family, run a shop, send their kids to school, share holidays together. Like every other society regardless of their government policy. I'd be willing to bet that if there was a referendum of 'Israel and Palestine will each split the contested land in half with Jerusalem staying as is, and no further conflict' - I reckon mast majority of those mothers and fathers who are bombed in the Gaza strip will likely be happy to agree to that. People are very rarely bad - it's the system of war and conflict which provokes them to do harm. 4. Try UK on for size - I'd bet most young people do not like the current government. I expect them to vote tories out. And in 5/10 years time new young people will have a different view of the world. Edited October 25, 2023 by Mic09 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tumblerseven Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 (edited) Yo @magnkarl out of curiosity if a country with 9 million people fight with a country of153 million people. Is it likely that war of attrition would contribute to the wars outcome? Edited October 25, 2023 by Tumblerseven Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thug Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 9 minutes ago, magnkarl said: Did you ask these sort of questions about when ISIS did the same in pretty much all of Syria\Iraq\Kurdistan too? Trying to shift the blame onto the organisers of a festival of which at least 240 people were slaughtered by a terrorist group is somewhat rich. To be fair, when there is a tragedy, there is usually more than one mistake, and ergo more than one party to blame. So he wasn’t ‘shifting blame’ rather ‘distributing’ it. With the obvious advantage of hindsight, would you not agree that the potential risks were not fully assessed and therefore it was a mistake? Or maybe they WERE fully assessed, but the assessment was wrong. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mic09 Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 1 minute ago, Tumblerseven said: Yo @magnkarl out of curiosity if a country with 9 million people fight with a country of153 million people. Is it likely that war of attrition would contribute to the wars outcome? Can we please have a disclaimer that the country of 9 million people are financially/militarily doped by the most powerful empire the world has ever seen? Also, please leave those numbers alone. It's not relevant to conversation - most of those 9 million people (as well as most of the 153 million) simply want a peaceful life and not causing harm to others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pongo Waring Posted October 25, 2023 Share Posted October 25, 2023 Seeing the free planestiners ripping down posters of missing British people is very sad to me 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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