Arthur Scargill

[tonyh29]

 

 

Have we got a single political leader in the 20th C & 21st C that we can all agree on? Possibly only Churchill in WWII?

Churchill really was quite a vile man.

 

Good wartime leader perhaps, but other than that ..... nope.

 

Vile in what way  ? certainly he was flawed but I've never heard him called vile before

[MakemineVanilla]

I am not talking about the miners strike. I am talking about all the financial benefits Scargill and friends took from the union. 

 

Doesn’t it seem strange that a Union that once had hundred of thousands of members, but now numbers thousands made large donation to an organisation set up by Scargill and friends and run in Paris which hasn’t produced accounts? Wouldn’t it be better that this money helped British miners, and ex-miners?

 

Where did all the donations from various sources end up? 

 

Did you watch the programme? Did you notice that the NUM ended up suing Scargill?

 

 

Why is it that both left and right can’t see the wrong within its heroes when they are found not to be perfect? 

 

Apologies.

 

Your use of the word 'agenda' misled me into thinking you were meaning a political agenda.

 

He seems to be in an on-going contractual dispute with his former employer about the status of his grace and favour residence and other financial matters.

 

I suppose we would have to know the financial packages and perquisites of other NUM officials to decide whether he is singularly taking the piss or not.

 

He certainly would have been doing them a favour if he had managed to buy the flat in question.

 

I tend to think that the main reason the story is interesting is that it serves as a useful piece of propaganda in the on-going attack on socialism and advocates of socialism.

 

Fair game of course but it still needs pointing out.

[PauloBarnesi]

 

 

Have we got a single political leader in the 20th C & 21st C that we can all agree on? Possibly only Churchill in WWII?

Churchill really was quite a vile man.

 

Good wartime leader perhaps, but other than that ..... nope.

 

 

Better our vile man than that rather vile man from Germany. Good probably doesn’t describe him in terms of what he did.

[bickster]

Was it not the case that the mines had already been agreed to be closed ...

No it wasn't the case at all

EDIT: and an awful lot of Wilson's closures were actually exhausted seams, you can't mine what isn't there, not the case under the witch

 

As a consequence of the 1967 Fuel White Paper, it was expected that coal mining would have ended in Scotland, Wales and Durham by 1980. The number of jobs in the industry would contract from 387,000 in 1967 to 65,000 by 1980. 

 

At the start of the 1984 strike, there were still almost 200,000 miners.

1967 Fuel White Paper was clearly wrong then

[Jon]

 

 

 

Have we got a single political leader in the 20th C & 21st C that we can all agree on? Possibly only Churchill in WWII?

Churchill really was quite a vile man.

 

Good wartime leader perhaps, but other than that ..... nope.

 

Vile in what way  ? certainly he was flawed but I've never heard him called vile before

 

doesn't take much research Paulo squire:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2002/nov/28/features11.g21

 

The Churchill you didn't know

Thousands voted him the greatest Briton - but did they know about his views on Gandhi, gassing and Jews...

• Share219
• inShare0
• Email

• The Guardian, Thursday 28 November 2002

I will not pretend that, if I had to choose between communism and nazism, I would choose communism.

Speaking in the House of Commons, autumn 1937

I do not understand the squeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poisonous gas against uncivilised tribes.

Writing as president of the Air Council, 1919

It is alarming and nauseating to see Mr Gandhi, a seditious Middle Temple lawyer, now posing as a fakir of a type well known in the east, striding half naked up the steps of the viceregal palace, while he is still organising and conducting a campaign of civil disobedience, to parlay on equal terms with the representative of the Emperor-King.

Commenting on Gandhi's meeting with the Viceroy of India, 1931

(India is) a godless land of snobs and bores.

In a letter to his mother, 1896

I do not admit... that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America, or the black people of Australia... by the fact that a stronger race, a higher grade race... has come in and taken its place.

Churchill to Palestine Royal Commission, 1937

(We must rally against) a poisoned Russia, an infected Russia of armed hordes not only smiting with bayonet and cannon, but accompanied and preceded by swarms of typhus-bearing vermin.

Quoted in the Boston Review, April/May 2001

"The choice was clearly open: crush them with vain and unstinted force, or try to give them what they want. These were the only alternatives and most people were unprepared for either. Here indeed was the Irish spectre - horrid and inexorcisable.

Writing in The World Crisis and the Aftermath, 1923-31

The unnatural and increasingly rapid growth of the feeble-minded and insane classes, coupled as it is with a steady restriction among all the thrifty, energetic and superior stocks, constitutes a national and race danger which it is impossible to exaggerate... I feel that the source from which the stream of madness is fed should be cut off and sealed up before another year has passed.

Churchill to Asquith, 1910

One may dislike Hitler's system and yet admire his patriotic achievement. If our country were defeated, I hope we should find a champion as admirable to restore our courage and lead us back to our place among the nations."

From his Great Contemporaries, 1937

You are callous people who want to wreck Europe - you do not care about the future of Europe, you have only your own miserable interests in mind.

Addressing the London Polish government at a British Embassy meeting, October 1944

So far as Britain and Russia were concerned, how would it do for you to have 90% of Romania, for us to have 90% of the say in Greece, and go 50/50 about Yugoslavia?

Addressing Stalin in Moscow, October 1944

This movement among the Jews is not new. From the days of Spartacus-Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx, and down to Trotsky (Russia), Bela Kun (Hungary), Rosa Luxembourg (Germany), and Emma Goldman (United States)... this worldwide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilisation and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality, has been steadily growing. It has been the mainspring of every subversive movement during the 19th century; and now at last this band of extraordinary personalities from the underworld of the great cities of Europe and America have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their heads and have become practically the undisputed masters of that enormous empire."

Writing on 'Zionism versus Bolshevism' in the Illustrated Sunday Herald, February 1920

[colhint]

It depends 

 

 

Was it not the case that the mines had already been agreed to be closed ...

No it wasn't the case at all

EDIT: and an awful lot of Wilson's closures were actually exhausted seams, you can't mine what isn't there, not the case under the witch

 

 

That doesn't seem to be correct to me. Mind you it depends what an awful lot is. more or less than 50%. Even if it were 50% That would still mean about 100 were closed when they were not exhausted. I also find it hard to believe that in a 6 year period mines ran out of fuel at more than one a month

[MakemineVanilla]

 

 

Have we got a single political leader in the 20th C & 21st C that we can all agree on? Possibly only Churchill in WWII?

Churchill really was quite a vile man.

 

Good wartime leader perhaps, but other than that ..... nope.

 

 

Yeah, the Churchill thing?

 

I read Roy Jenkins biography which left me thinking 'what a guy' but then it quickly became apparent that loads of the bad stuff had been left out.

 

The American historian Buchanan, in his book 'the unnecessary war', makes the case that a cult was created around Churchill and that this country has become more militaristic as a result, and that every British PM's main ambition is to gain Churchillian status by some military intervention.

 

Seems reasonable to me. 

[chrisp65]

 

 

 

Thatcher wanted to close British mines and import cheaper coal from abroad and had a hit-list of pits she planned to shut.

 

She lied to the public and denied this categorically but the papers were released recently which proved she was a liar.

 

 

 

 

was it not also the case that Thatcher offered an incredibly expensive retraining and benefits package to all miners being made redundant and Scargill turned it down flat 

 

 

Ah, now we're edging into the realms of my personal experience.

 

Dozens of welsh miners were given the 'opportunity to re train' as engineers within the welsh health service. Having therefore agreed to voluntary redundancy they were moved en masse to my place of work keen to start their re training as electrical engineers, mechanical engineers, surveyors, banksmen and site foremen etc..

 

Unfortunately for them, in the short term we hadn't been told they were arriving and not only didn't have work for them, but didn't even have chairs for them. In the medium term we had no budget for training, in house or college based so no courses were signed up that September. In the longer term, our offices were already in process of undergoing sweeping redundancies prior to being sold off on the cheap to Capita. Not a single ex miner made the cut.

 

What's more, we were assured any redundancies would be 'blind, fair and equitable'. Which was odd, because when I resigned I was told there was no need as my own position was safe. I queried this as we'd all been assured there would be no favour or preference in redundancy selection. To which the response was that 'not all names are going in the hat'.

 

So yes, there was some very very expensive 'retraining'.

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

It's the leaders that try and appear to be perfect that you have to worry about.

[PauloBarnesi]

 

 

 

 

Have we got a single political leader in the 20th C & 21st C that we can all agree on? Possibly only Churchill in WWII?

Churchill really was quite a vile man.

 

Good wartime leader perhaps, but other than that ..... nope.

 

Vile in what way  ? certainly he was flawed but I've never heard him called vile before

 

doesn't take much research Paulo squire:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2002/nov/28/features11.g21

 

The Churchill you didn't know

Thousands voted him the greatest Briton - but did they know about his views on Gandhi, gassing and Jews...

• Share219
•  
•  
• inShare0
• Email

• The Guardian, Thursday 28 November 2002

I will not pretend that, if I had to choose between communism and nazism, I would choose communism.

Speaking in the House of Commons, autumn 1937

I do not understand the squeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poisonous gas against uncivilised tribes.

Writing as president of the Air Council, 1919

It is alarming and nauseating to see Mr Gandhi, a seditious Middle Temple lawyer, now posing as a fakir of a type well known in the east, striding half naked up the steps of the viceregal palace, while he is still organising and conducting a campaign of civil disobedience, to parlay on equal terms with the representative of the Emperor-King.

Commenting on Gandhi's meeting with the Viceroy of India, 1931

(India is) a godless land of snobs and bores.

In a letter to his mother, 1896

I do not admit... that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America, or the black people of Australia... by the fact that a stronger race, a higher grade race... has come in and taken its place.

Churchill to Palestine Royal Commission, 1937

(We must rally against) a poisoned Russia, an infected Russia of armed hordes not only smiting with bayonet and cannon, but accompanied and preceded by swarms of typhus-bearing vermin.

Quoted in the Boston Review, April/May 2001

"The choice was clearly open: crush them with vain and unstinted force, or try to give them what they want. These were the only alternatives and most people were unprepared for either. Here indeed was the Irish spectre - horrid and inexorcisable.

Writing in The World Crisis and the Aftermath, 1923-31

The unnatural and increasingly rapid growth of the feeble-minded and insane classes, coupled as it is with a steady restriction among all the thrifty, energetic and superior stocks, constitutes a national and race danger which it is impossible to exaggerate... I feel that the source from which the stream of madness is fed should be cut off and sealed up before another year has passed.

Churchill to Asquith, 1910

One may dislike Hitler's system and yet admire his patriotic achievement. If our country were defeated, I hope we should find a champion as admirable to restore our courage and lead us back to our place among the nations."

From his Great Contemporaries, 1937

You are callous people who want to wreck Europe - you do not care about the future of Europe, you have only your own miserable interests in mind.

Addressing the London Polish government at a British Embassy meeting, October 1944

So far as Britain and Russia were concerned, how would it do for you to have 90% of Romania, for us to have 90% of the say in Greece, and go 50/50 about Yugoslavia?

Addressing Stalin in Moscow, October 1944

This movement among the Jews is not new. From the days of Spartacus-Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx, and down to Trotsky (Russia), Bela Kun (Hungary), Rosa Luxembourg (Germany), and Emma Goldman (United States)... this worldwide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilisation and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality, has been steadily growing. It has been the mainspring of every subversive movement during the 19th century; and now at last this band of extraordinary personalities from the underworld of the great cities of Europe and America have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their heads and have become practically the undisputed masters of that enormous empire."

Writing on 'Zionism versus Bolshevism' in the Illustrated Sunday Herald, February 1920

 

Think you should be aiming that at Tony not moi. 

 

But as I ve said Churchill rather than Hitler for me. Better the devil you know and all that.

[PauloBarnesi]

 

 

 

Have we got a single political leader in the 20th C & 21st C that we can all agree on? Possibly only Churchill in WWII?

Churchill really was quite a vile man.

 

Good wartime leader perhaps, but other than that ..... nope.

 

 

Yeah, the Churchill thing?

 

I read Roy Jenkins biography which left me thinking 'what a guy' but then it quickly became apparent that loads of the bad stuff had been left out.

 

The American historian Buchanan, in his book 'the unnecessary war', makes the case that a cult was created around Churchill and that this country has become more militaristic as a result, and that every British PM's main ambition is to gain Churchillian status by some military intervention.

 

Seems reasonable to me. 

 

An American historian talking about unnecessary war;   maybe he should study the US record first.

[tonyh29]

 

 

 

 

Have we got a single political leader in the 20th C & 21st C that we can all agree on? Possibly only Churchill in WWII?

Churchill really was quite a vile man.

 

Good wartime leader perhaps, but other than that ..... nope.

 

Vile in what way  ? certainly he was flawed but I've never heard him called vile before

 

doesn't take much research Paulo squire:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2002/nov/28/features11.g21

 

The Churchill you didn't know

Thousands voted him the greatest Briton - but did they know about his views on Gandhi, gassing and Jews...

• Share219
•  
•  
• inShare0
• Email

• The Guardian, Thursday 28 November 2002

I will not pretend that, if I had to choose between communism and nazism, I would choose communism.

Speaking in the House of Commons, autumn 1937

I do not understand the squeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poisonous gas against uncivilised tribes.

Writing as president of the Air Council, 1919

It is alarming and nauseating to see Mr Gandhi, a seditious Middle Temple lawyer, now posing as a fakir of a type well known in the east, striding half naked up the steps of the viceregal palace, while he is still organising and conducting a campaign of civil disobedience, to parlay on equal terms with the representative of the Emperor-King.

Commenting on Gandhi's meeting with the Viceroy of India, 1931

(India is) a godless land of snobs and bores.

In a letter to his mother, 1896

I do not admit... that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America, or the black people of Australia... by the fact that a stronger race, a higher grade race... has come in and taken its place.

Churchill to Palestine Royal Commission, 1937

(We must rally against) a poisoned Russia, an infected Russia of armed hordes not only smiting with bayonet and cannon, but accompanied and preceded by swarms of typhus-bearing vermin.

Quoted in the Boston Review, April/May 2001

"The choice was clearly open: crush them with vain and unstinted force, or try to give them what they want. These were the only alternatives and most people were unprepared for either. Here indeed was the Irish spectre - horrid and inexorcisable.

Writing in The World Crisis and the Aftermath, 1923-31

The unnatural and increasingly rapid growth of the feeble-minded and insane classes, coupled as it is with a steady restriction among all the thrifty, energetic and superior stocks, constitutes a national and race danger which it is impossible to exaggerate... I feel that the source from which the stream of madness is fed should be cut off and sealed up before another year has passed.

Churchill to Asquith, 1910

One may dislike Hitler's system and yet admire his patriotic achievement. If our country were defeated, I hope we should find a champion as admirable to restore our courage and lead us back to our place among the nations."

From his Great Contemporaries, 1937

You are callous people who want to wreck Europe - you do not care about the future of Europe, you have only your own miserable interests in mind.

Addressing the London Polish government at a British Embassy meeting, October 1944

So far as Britain and Russia were concerned, how would it do for you to have 90% of Romania, for us to have 90% of the say in Greece, and go 50/50 about Yugoslavia?

Addressing Stalin in Moscow, October 1944

This movement among the Jews is not new. From the days of Spartacus-Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx, and down to Trotsky (Russia), Bela Kun (Hungary), Rosa Luxembourg (Germany), and Emma Goldman (United States)... this worldwide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilisation and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality, has been steadily growing. It has been the mainspring of every subversive movement during the 19th century; and now at last this band of extraordinary personalities from the underworld of the great cities of Europe and America have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their heads and have become practically the undisputed masters of that enormous empire."

Writing on 'Zionism versus Bolshevism' in the Illustrated Sunday Herald, February 1920

 

 

to be fair he was right about the child molester Gandhi  ...

 

a lot of what he says in those examples are not vile though ... Nazism v Communism  .. sure in 1945 we know what that represented but he was speaking in 1937 without the benefit of hindsight of a world war , final solution etc   .. (overlooking the evils that were carried out in the name of communism )

Edited January 16, 2014 by tonyh29

[Jon]

 

 

 

 

 

Have we got a single political leader in the 20th C & 21st C that we can all agree on? Possibly only Churchill in WWII?

Churchill really was quite a vile man.

 

Good wartime leader perhaps, but other than that ..... nope.

 

Vile in what way  ? certainly he was flawed but I've never heard him called vile before

 

doesn't take much research Paulo squire:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2002/nov/28/features11.g21

 

The Churchill you didn't know

Thousands voted him the greatest Briton - but did they know about his views on Gandhi, gassing and Jews...

• Share219
•  
•  
• inShare0
• Email

• The Guardian, Thursday 28 November 2002

I will not pretend that, if I had to choose between communism and nazism, I would choose communism.

Speaking in the House of Commons, autumn 1937

I do not understand the squeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poisonous gas against uncivilised tribes.

Writing as president of the Air Council, 1919

It is alarming and nauseating to see Mr Gandhi, a seditious Middle Temple lawyer, now posing as a fakir of a type well known in the east, striding half naked up the steps of the viceregal palace, while he is still organising and conducting a campaign of civil disobedience, to parlay on equal terms with the representative of the Emperor-King.

Commenting on Gandhi's meeting with the Viceroy of India, 1931

(India is) a godless land of snobs and bores.

In a letter to his mother, 1896

I do not admit... that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America, or the black people of Australia... by the fact that a stronger race, a higher grade race... has come in and taken its place.

Churchill to Palestine Royal Commission, 1937

(We must rally against) a poisoned Russia, an infected Russia of armed hordes not only smiting with bayonet and cannon, but accompanied and preceded by swarms of typhus-bearing vermin.

Quoted in the Boston Review, April/May 2001

"The choice was clearly open: crush them with vain and unstinted force, or try to give them what they want. These were the only alternatives and most people were unprepared for either. Here indeed was the Irish spectre - horrid and inexorcisable.

Writing in The World Crisis and the Aftermath, 1923-31

The unnatural and increasingly rapid growth of the feeble-minded and insane classes, coupled as it is with a steady restriction among all the thrifty, energetic and superior stocks, constitutes a national and race danger which it is impossible to exaggerate... I feel that the source from which the stream of madness is fed should be cut off and sealed up before another year has passed.

Churchill to Asquith, 1910

One may dislike Hitler's system and yet admire his patriotic achievement. If our country were defeated, I hope we should find a champion as admirable to restore our courage and lead us back to our place among the nations."

From his Great Contemporaries, 1937

You are callous people who want to wreck Europe - you do not care about the future of Europe, you have only your own miserable interests in mind.

Addressing the London Polish government at a British Embassy meeting, October 1944

So far as Britain and Russia were concerned, how would it do for you to have 90% of Romania, for us to have 90% of the say in Greece, and go 50/50 about Yugoslavia?

Addressing Stalin in Moscow, October 1944

This movement among the Jews is not new. From the days of Spartacus-Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx, and down to Trotsky (Russia), Bela Kun (Hungary), Rosa Luxembourg (Germany), and Emma Goldman (United States)... this worldwide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilisation and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality, has been steadily growing. It has been the mainspring of every subversive movement during the 19th century; and now at last this band of extraordinary personalities from the underworld of the great cities of Europe and America have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their heads and have become practically the undisputed masters of that enormous empire."

Writing on 'Zionism versus Bolshevism' in the Illustrated Sunday Herald, February 1920

 

Think you should be aiming that at Tony not moi. 

 

But as I ve said Churchill rather than Hitler for me. Better the devil you know and all that.

 

Sorry - yes should have been for Mr Loc.

 

Re Churchill Vs Adolf - yes, as people, and on their views, Hitler took some beating. Comparing anyone to Hitler really isn't the best starting point though!

 

Having said that, I bet many in this country would love a bit of german efficiency and centre left governance right now. I bet there'd be no 'Benefits Street' on German Tv etc.

[PauloBarnesi]

Didn’t Blandy post something about the Germans not be that efficient last year? Anyway I would love it if we had a half decent car industry. Oh we have; Mini, Rolls Royce and Bentley. All owned by Germans. Or a decent railway company. Oh we have; Chiltern Railways. Owned by DB...

 

Anyway back to Scargill. Think everything has been said. Vilified and loved by many. 

[MakemineVanilla]

 

 

 

 

 

Have we got a single political leader in the 20th C & 21st C that we can all agree on? Possibly only Churchill in WWII?

Churchill really was quite a vile man.

 

Good wartime leader perhaps, but other than that ..... nope.

 

Vile in what way  ? certainly he was flawed but I've never heard him called vile before

 

doesn't take much research Paulo squire:

 

http://www.theguardian.com/theguardian/2002/nov/28/features11.g21

 

The Churchill you didn't know

Thousands voted him the greatest Briton - but did they know about his views on Gandhi, gassing and Jews...

• Share219
•  
•  
• inShare0
• Email

• The Guardian, Thursday 28 November 2002

I will not pretend that, if I had to choose between communism and nazism, I would choose communism.

Speaking in the House of Commons, autumn 1937

I do not understand the squeamishness about the use of gas. I am strongly in favour of using poisonous gas against uncivilised tribes.

Writing as president of the Air Council, 1919

It is alarming and nauseating to see Mr Gandhi, a seditious Middle Temple lawyer, now posing as a fakir of a type well known in the east, striding half naked up the steps of the viceregal palace, while he is still organising and conducting a campaign of civil disobedience, to parlay on equal terms with the representative of the Emperor-King.

Commenting on Gandhi's meeting with the Viceroy of India, 1931

(India is) a godless land of snobs and bores.

In a letter to his mother, 1896

I do not admit... that a great wrong has been done to the Red Indians of America, or the black people of Australia... by the fact that a stronger race, a higher grade race... has come in and taken its place.

Churchill to Palestine Royal Commission, 1937

(We must rally against) a poisoned Russia, an infected Russia of armed hordes not only smiting with bayonet and cannon, but accompanied and preceded by swarms of typhus-bearing vermin.

Quoted in the Boston Review, April/May 2001

"The choice was clearly open: crush them with vain and unstinted force, or try to give them what they want. These were the only alternatives and most people were unprepared for either. Here indeed was the Irish spectre - horrid and inexorcisable.

Writing in The World Crisis and the Aftermath, 1923-31

The unnatural and increasingly rapid growth of the feeble-minded and insane classes, coupled as it is with a steady restriction among all the thrifty, energetic and superior stocks, constitutes a national and race danger which it is impossible to exaggerate... I feel that the source from which the stream of madness is fed should be cut off and sealed up before another year has passed.

Churchill to Asquith, 1910

One may dislike Hitler's system and yet admire his patriotic achievement. If our country were defeated, I hope we should find a champion as admirable to restore our courage and lead us back to our place among the nations."

From his Great Contemporaries, 1937

You are callous people who want to wreck Europe - you do not care about the future of Europe, you have only your own miserable interests in mind.

Addressing the London Polish government at a British Embassy meeting, October 1944

So far as Britain and Russia were concerned, how would it do for you to have 90% of Romania, for us to have 90% of the say in Greece, and go 50/50 about Yugoslavia?

Addressing Stalin in Moscow, October 1944

This movement among the Jews is not new. From the days of Spartacus-Weishaupt to those of Karl Marx, and down to Trotsky (Russia), Bela Kun (Hungary), Rosa Luxembourg (Germany), and Emma Goldman (United States)... this worldwide conspiracy for the overthrow of civilisation and for the reconstitution of society on the basis of arrested development, of envious malevolence, and impossible equality, has been steadily growing. It has been the mainspring of every subversive movement during the 19th century; and now at last this band of extraordinary personalities from the underworld of the great cities of Europe and America have gripped the Russian people by the hair of their heads and have become practically the undisputed masters of that enormous empire."

Writing on 'Zionism versus Bolshevism' in the Illustrated Sunday Herald, February 1920

 

 

to be fair he was right about the child molester Gandhi  ...

 

a lot of what he says in those examples are not vile though ... Nazism v Communism  .. sure in 1945 we know what that represented but he was speaking in 1937 without the benefit of hindsight of a world war , final solution etc   .. (overlooking the evils that were carried out in the name of communism )

 

 

The Nuremberg Laws which robbed Jews of German citizenship and made sexual contact with them illegal, were enacted in 1935.

 

Jews started to flee Germany by then.

 

Hitler's plan for the Jews was clearly laid out in Mein Kampf (1925).

 

British Fascists were beating up Jews in 1936.

 

Churchill knew exactly what was going on.

Edited January 16, 2014 by MakemineVanilla

[blandy]

Didn’t Blandy post something about the Germans not be that efficient last year? Anyway I would love it if we had a half decent car industry. Oh we have; Mini, Rolls Royce and Bentley. All owned by Germans. Or a decent railway company. Oh we have; Chiltern Railways. Owned by DB...

 

Anyway back to Scargill. Think everything has been said. Vilified and loved by many. 

I don't think so Paul - I did say, (I think) that their industry is a lot more respectful and iinvolving in terms of the unions, that they have never gone for Thatcherism type worker relations, they're more long term, have better pay and conditions and worker protection, and that bad management is far more of a factor than unions are to companies failing.

And if I didn't, then I just said it now.

[tonyh29]

if the basis of the Communism v Nazism debate from Churchill's statement is based on the treatment of Jews , Stalin was also anti-Semitic so arguably both ideologies cancelled each other out in that regard

 

 

I've heard the argument from Dawidowicz that the FS was planned since 1918  but I think she is alone in that view ? ( she seems to draw a direct link from Martin Luther to Hitler with her theory if i recall  ?) 

 

but Einsatzgruppen started around 1940 didn't it ? so to be honest on the basis that  persecution not being the same as execution .... I don't think Churchill did know what was going on in 1937 , unless Mein Kampf mentions the FS in more detail ,(I've never read it so cant really offer any view on it's content)

 

 

we are going wayyyyyy OT now though   (sorry chaps)

[tonyh29]

 

Didn’t Blandy post something about the Germans not be that efficient last year? Anyway I would love it if we had a half decent car industry. Oh we have; Mini, Rolls Royce and Bentley. All owned by Germans. Or a decent railway company. Oh we have; Chiltern Railways. Owned by DB...

 

Anyway back to Scargill. Think everything has been said. Vilified and loved by many. 

I don't think so Paul - I did say, (I think) that their industry is a lot more respectful and iinvolving in terms of the unions, that they have never gone for Thatcherism type worker relations, they're more long term, have better pay and conditions and worker protection, and that bad management is far more of a factor than unions are to companies failing.

And if I didn't, then I just said it now.

 

I think it was in the condem thread and mentioned by someone else not you (blandy)

 

the discussion was around the German Coal industry  ..which if i recall is heavily subsidised ( against EU rules   ... not that Ze Germans care ) and also increasing Germanys Carbon Footprint where as we are being heavily taxed via Green taxes to meet lower Co2 Levels  ... go figure 

[PauloBarnesi]

 

 

The Nuremberg Laws which robbed Jews of German citizenship and made sexual contact with them illegal, were enacted in 1935.

 

Jews started to flee Germany by then.

 

Hitler's plan for the Jews was clearly laid out in Mein Kampf (1925).

 

British Fascists were beating up Jews in 1936.

 

Churchill knew exactly what was going on.

 

 

I am not sure anyone knew to the full extent what was happening until sometime after 1941 when the ‘final solution’ came into being. I think that many simply could not believe the depths of what was to come. I am sure that many of the papers that relate to the British knowledge and the reaction within government are still classified.

[MakemineVanilla]

 

 

 

The Nuremberg Laws which robbed Jews of German citizenship and made sexual contact with them illegal, were enacted in 1935.

 

Jews started to flee Germany by then.

 

Hitler's plan for the Jews was clearly laid out in Mein Kampf (1925).

 

British Fascists were beating up Jews in 1936.

 

Churchill knew exactly what was going on.

 

 

I am not sure anyone knew to the full extent what was happening until sometime after 1941 when the ‘final solution’ came into being. I think that many simply could not believe the depths of what was to come. I am sure that many of the papers that relate to the British knowledge and the reaction within government are still classified.

 

 

If I were to try and construct a defence for Churchill's anti-Semitic statements, I would probably ask people to take into account the very high level of anti-Semitism which existed then, which would be considered toxic by today's standards. Certainly anyone born before WW2 would have been exposed to the full poison of Henry Ford's fabricated The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

 

And certainly those born before the war can still be heard repeating their paranoid vile conspiracy theories, even now. 

 

Some have successfully handed on their bigotry to present generations.

 

So I would ask people not to get too carried away and believe that people back then were just like us.

 

I am sure that anyone who was whizzed back in a time machine to the early 20th Century would be disgusted by the bigotry, jingoism and ignorance of most ordinary people.

 

So, yes, Churchill was a racist and Jew-hater but so was almost everyone else - whose good opinion he was soliciting when made his racist and anti-Semitic statements.