striker

Not really a difficult one at all this. Getting offer for problematic player who just hasn't performed and will clear not insubstantial wages of the books with young players coming through to take his place. Agree on 4m plus another 1m based on appearances and move on.

Good post and just about where I'm at with it.

Not sure if comparing Villa to Newcastle last season is as invalid or unhelpful as you state but to debate it we would be running around in circles for the next two or three pages of this thread. Anyway it was more the attitude of Rafa I was getting at in how he got his players to approach playing Championship teams. Newcastle stamped their authority on games from the off while Villa did exactly the opposite. That may very well be down to the way in which Bruce's teams generally play as opposed to showing teams too much respect but Bruce's Hull did score plenty of goals gaining promotion while Villa are still struggling to do that even in pre season against respectively inferior opposition. So there's something not quite right. It may well be that Tro's point needing a better DM to allow Lansbury and Hourihane to play further forward may create more goal scoring opportunities but it didn't with Jedinak last season. So what if you are correct and the signings of Whelan and Elmo make no difference to the way Villa play next season because Bruce simply won't change his style of play? If that is so I do not think Bruce will see Christmas as Villa manager.

I guess this is right to the point of the debate whether Whelan will do exactly that or the possession stats will improve but ultimately Villa will still struggle to score the required quota of goals to be in the top 2? As long as Bruce is manager I think it will be the latter but would love to be proven wrong.

I sincerely hope that Bruce doesn't play Jedinak and Whelan together. Villa aren't going to be playing teams with enough quality in the Championship to warrant two defensive midfielders. In fact it should be Championship opposition doing that when they face Villa.

For me he is ready now and you could see that in his little cameo in the last game. Tish should be sent out on loan if not sold so Lyden should be retained in the first team squad. I honestly can't see either Whelan nor Jedinak going a full season without a lengthy injury so he would be excellent cover for a few positions as Lyden can play further forward as well. I just think Bruce needs to show the same faith in him as Green but no doubt with the signing of Whelan he will probably be loaned out which I think will be a mistake unless only until say January and able to recall him.

I really do think Bruce has missed a trick here in giving more game time to Lyden in the DM role but there is still time for that in whats left of pre-season. I just hope with the signing of Whelan Bruce doesn't become blinkered in his approach to Lyden and farm him out on loan for the season?

Well Tro you got what you wanted so hopefully it will make a difference.

Really good post mate. An enjoyable read. I think the point that I and others are making is that even when Jedinak did return from injury those more offensive players still struggled to create or score goals. With the added protection from Jedinak back from injury Bruce still seemingly set the team up in a defensive manner relying on Kodjia to nick a goal and then trying to defend that. Imo that setup isn't going to get you automatic promotion when you factor in the human capacity to make mistakes. If you take how Newcastle played in the Championship as an example last season. Rafa generally seen as a defensive manager did however show very little respect to Championship teams with a squad not much better than Villa's. He had Championship teams on the back foot from the off and went for the throat. They will be playing in the Premiership next season. Bruce however lost the initiative from the start against Championship teams by paying them too much respect and sitting back.He lost the aura of AVFC by doing that and Championship teams quickly gained confidence in playing Villa. Some of those teams couldn't believe their luck how much respect Bruce was paying them. Villa are still in the Championship. I think the problem lies more with Bruce's system of play with or without a much lorded DM but there can be no more excuses if Villa's performances and results don't improve.

Well mate if that was the prevalent attitude in teams by all managers then younger players wouldn't get a game and given time to develop. You will note Bruce has already given Green game time and imo Bruce should do the same with Lyden. As it is Bruce has got his man so I guess we're going to learn pretty quickly whether the inclusion of Whelan is now going to change Bruce's tactics from ultra defensive to being more offensive. When you reflect on last season the inclusion of Jedinak made little difference to the way Villa played so it will be interesting to see what happens?

I'd change that last word in your post a bit then fully agree with it.

Tro apart from Lyden who I believe if shown faith by the manager can be the player you want there's a guy at Fulham called Tom Cairney who I would say is as close to Barry as your going to get but he would command a fee more than what Hogan cost and will probably end up in the Premiership.

Yup Elmo.

Impressed with him last night including his ability to actually pass to a team mate when under pressure. Will also prove dangerous at set pieces. Adequate cover so yes I'd give him a 1 year contract as long as his wage demands are realistic. Much better alternative than Richards or Elphick.

If you are going to use games played in the Premiership or at international level as a barometer to gage a player's ability then you are on a very slippery slope indeed especially concerning Whelan and who he has played for. Jedinak was mentioned as the missing link last season in allowing Hourihane and Lansbury to be more offensive yet look how that turned out. Lyden for me should be given more game time now. He has better control, passing ability and more energy than either Jedinak or Whelan (if signed) will ever have. Plus you have JT at centre back who will keep Lyden disciplined. No better time to blood him now with Jedinak as backup when Lyden needs resting.

What I've seen of him (which is limited) he is the type of player you speak of but has better control and passing ability than Jedinak imo. Just needs to be given more game time now to get up to speed fitness wise. I'd actually play him in the first team and have Jedinak as cover. What I noted tonight those players from the U21s that were given a chance shone more than those costing fees and maybe that's the way to go rather than paying fees for the likes of Whelan and Elmo?

Lyden showed enough in his little cameo tonight to be that player and should be given more game time before the season starts to prove it. I'd much rather promote Lyden than sign Whelan who for me is a really poor player.

If this is true really, really disappointed to see him go but maybe he just didn't want to stay despite the new setup. Agree with others that the mooted fee is on the low side.

Thought Samba and Terry were solid. When Lyden came on he did well in a short cameo and must be given more playing time. Green's approach work is good but needs a lot of work on his final ball. The rest were pretty poor again and the same issues that plagued last season remain. Based on what I've seen so far the bookies making Villa favourites to win league or gain promotion are having a laugh.

Villa have got a ready made 10 in Vertout. Hopefully he'll be given a chance in that role in the second half?

Still think he would be better used as a DM in the Jedinak role which would negate the need to sign Whelan from Stoke.

Not being an admirer of Steve Bruce as a football manager to be fair to him, he has been frugal in the transfer market with the exception of Hogan which is to be commended. He has, on paper, improved the squad while not spending a lot so if he does gain promotion this season then despite the standard of football on show so far he will have put Villa on a better financial footing steadying the ship so to speak while trying to rid Villa of the dross signed in recent seasons. If Villa struggle in the opening games of the season however and are hovering in and around mid table with no improvement in performances then he will be sacked but considering the above he will have contributed to stabilising the club which will make it much easier for any new manager coming in to be more successful. That's as positive and balanced as I can be at the moment about him as Villa manager.

Another to add to the outs once Bruce is sacked. I guess Whelan will be next.

No doubt about it Mooy is decent but under the right manager I think Vertout could be better. That's why I feel it's imperative that Villa hold onto him until at least January whereby there might be a new manager in place anyway.

Villa don't need yet another leader on the pitch. What they do need is a system of play that the players feel comfortable with and will get the best out of them.