terrytini

All the people, RL included, who claim there are alternative ways to success - any examples ? It is disingenous at best. If there were all these alternative strategies how come every Club in the land isn't doing it ? (And, ironically, if they were, the dividing line would again be how much they spent on wages). Over time, any sort of meaningful period, say 3 or more seasons, you will get League positions equating to spend. There is no cut price way to do it. So balance the books to income by all means, but then be honest enough to say thqt means we are not competing for the Top Places.

Rubbish. The figures speak for themselves, he spent what he did and we were pushing fourth - and not lower than 6th. Since then we are a nowhere Club who will be lucky to stay in the PL. One day - if we are very very lucky - we might get someone else who will 'underacheive' to that extent - but I doubt it. With the money he spent, 6th is hardly an achievement, especially when you consider Everton would regularly finish above us despite their obvious financial difficulties. Where are we now ? Say what you like and criticise but we hadn't done as well as regularly before and we certainly aren't now.

The mans performance in the transfer market has set us back years.....and i ain't so sure we are in any better hands, but i will wait and see. Ludicrous myth. Overall profit on his transfers and as successful as we are ever going to be while he was here.

Rubbish. The figures speak for themselves, he spent what he did and we were pushing fourth - and not lower than 6th. Since then we are a nowhere Club who will be lucky to stay in the PL. One day - if we are very very lucky - we might get someone else who will 'underacheive' to that extent - but I doubt it.

Well MON was never an outstanding manager and thus by allowing him to have so much control Randy made a big mistake. Yes things were so much worse then. :shock: All that vying for Top 4, beating Man U Arsenal Liverpool away and regularly hammering Blues, not to mention the Cup runs. Awful times.

For those anti Mcleish I would suggest it is only his dour, unflappable mentality, and yes his defensive organisation, that is going to hold our Club together this season. The fans are pissed off, the players still appear shell shocked from MON going and the debacle that followed, and Randy appears, as a minimum, to be more remote and less likely to spend than ever. So unless we really appear to be falling through the floor I would prefer we leave him alone !

I think there's 16 teams in the league that will set their stall out for a defeat before playing Man City away this season. The only ones who won't are Man Utd, Liverpool and Chelsea, and even Chelsea will be nervous about it, and Liverpool should be looking for a defeat, but they're just deluded about how good they are. See where your argument breaks down is that if every club had that mentality, there would never be an upset, the favourites would always win wouldnt they? Actually, when push comes to shove, its 11 v 11 and if you prepare properly, you give yourself a chance, just a sliver of an opportunity to go and win. Call it a game plan. Did we have one today? Please explain what it was apart from sitting deep and hitting Gabby? No, because upsets are upsets because they aren't expected. We're also not talking about the clubs, we're on about the fans, so where your argument falls down is the fact that what the fans think leading up to a game bears no relevance on how the club prepares for it. Nothing I said was rude, I simply asked a question based on the fact your post contradicted itself. And you've admitted that my first inference of your post was correct, that you want Lerner to pour even more of his wealth into it, so where exactly is the problem? You suggested the Post was 'Incoherent Rambling'. you didn't 'simply ask a question'. And I have not 'admitted' anything - Officer - you suggested I wanted him to spend all his money and I said, and still say, no such thing. On the other hand, other than criticise what I said, you have offered no response to the points I was making other than to say other owners lend money to their Clubs. The 'problem' is the lack of a logical debate. byeee

Liverpool have just spend what £70 million in the last about 10 months. While you say Man City aren't leaving Spurs behind, well after a 1-5 demolition at home, I can't see Spurs being within 15-20 points of Man City this season. Tottenham when Randy took over were already a top 5/6 team in the league and had good players, they then went and signed a lot of good players on top of that, obviously got Champions league spot which meant players didn't want to leave but as you saw this summer with Modric, soon Spurs will fall off the pack, maybe not as much as we did but they will start to lose their better players in the next 2-3 years IMO. Tottenham were near the bottom of the League shortly after Randy joined - but I take your point they had had some investment prior which helped HR get them back up quickly. I am not sure they wil be 20 points off Man City, but if City win the league 20 points behind will be a good position. If another 5 Clubs do a "Man City' will you be happy competing for 14th instead of 7th ? What about another 5 after that ? Will you be happy competing for 19th ? Do you think Randy is showing Leadership, Ambition, Drive, Determination ? Do you think he is working on ways to overtake Tottenham when they, as you put it, fall off the pace, or when Arsenal do, or anyone else ? Is he doing every last thing possible to make us a success ? I know the answer is largely conjecture, but I know what it feels like.

You think the guy should stick his entire personal wealth into a football team? Get out of dreamland. The guy has already invested a massive amount in the club, he isn't rich enough to spend Man City levels of money, he's never going to throw his entire fortune at the club, no one would. I made a reasoned post and you have completely failed to read it properly, or are not capable of doing so, and I have said no such thing. i merely, amongst other things, am making the point that we are not exactly owned by a pauper. And most of his investments into us have been loans. He does claim to be a fan after all. I live on 15 per week after bills, how much of his 600 Million do you think he could afford to invest, as a fan ? Your "reasoned post" started with claiming it's not about money, but "it is to do with a poor performance, lacking skill, energy, commitment, belief. And containing poor defending." and then went on to bring up money. So forgive me for not seeing it as reasoned when you can't even stick to a coherent argument within one post. Which one is it, the money that Lerner should spend? Or the poor performances and lack of commitment? Surely going by your first point the fact we're "not owned by a pauper" is completely irrelevant. Unless of course your "well reasoned post" was simply incoherent rambling with no real train of thought, which is exactly what it looks like seeing as the main two paragraphs in it directly contradict each other.As for how much he should invest, I'd say he's done more than fine so far and there had to me a point where the club stands on it's own. Find me an owner that doesn't invest via loans, all of Abramovich's cash injections have been via loans, and I'm willing to bet Man City's are too. It's by far the best way to do. You are a rude person aren't you - had a row with the wife ? Als o you appear to lack basic skills. The post talked about the perfromance today, and the fact that losing to Man City was not because of money but the reasons stated. It went on to criticise Lerners stewardship of the Club. Sorry if that was too much for you . And I don't care what other owners do, they aren't my Club - and I'm not aware how many of them have decleared themselves fans of the Club they own either.

You think the guy should stick his entire personal wealth into a football team?Get out of dreamland. The guy has already invested a massive amount in the club, he isn't rich enough to spend Man City levels of money, he's never going to throw his entire fortune at the club, no one would. Err Villa fans say you should, means you should! Or just sell up to someone who will, oh. Er , where did I say any such thing ? ?????????????????????????? That's surely the implication with bringing up his millions. Why else mention it? It's not like people don't know we have a billionaire owner. The only time people bring it up is in a "get your hand in your pocket" way, where they seem to think he should just keep on ploughing money in to the club with no return. I do want him to spend his money, because we need it, and because we were promised it, but my point is more than that - where is the drive, the ambition, the aggressive dod eat dog marketing ? Where are the talents at Board Level, where are we going ? He owns the Club, and claims it is not for investment purposes, is he happy with 7th ? Are you ? If Man City are such an obstacle - surely only to 1st Place ? - where is the plan to overcome the obstacle ? The Plan for 4th ? The plan for when it goes belly up at Man U, or Chelsea ? Where is ANYTHING ? How will we feel if we sit and watch another 5 Man Citys in the next 5 years ? And drift along ? Will you be as content competing for 14th as for 7th ? We are not - or should not be - Stoke, or Sunderland, we are Aston Villa, the biggest Club in the Midlands of over 6 million people, and one of the Top Clubs in English Football. So yes, a couple of hundred million, a load of passion, some commiunication to the fans of a strategy, a strategy, a marketting drive, some talent in the Board, some passion, some of that Billionaire nous, would all be welcome. I'm only a hard up fan, he is a wealthy one, I am sick of where we are going under him, slowly but surely, and sick of the acceptance of his reign either through fear of who worse we may get or appreciation of times past.

You think the guy should stick his entire personal wealth into a football team? Get out of dreamland. The guy has already invested a massive amount in the club, he isn't rich enough to spend Man City levels of money, he's never going to throw his entire fortune at the club, no one would. I made a reasoned post and you have completely failed to read it properly, or are not capable of doing so, and I have said no such thing. i merely, amongst other things, am making the point that we are not exactly owned by a pauper. And most of his investments into us have been loans. He does claim to be a fan after all. I live on 15 per week after bills, how much of his 600 Million do you think he could afford to invest, as a fan ?

You think the guy should stick his entire personal wealth into a football team?Get out of dreamland. The guy has already invested a massive amount in the club, he isn't rich enough to spend Man City levels of money, he's never going to throw his entire fortune at the club, no one would. Err Villa fans say you should, means you should! Or just sell up to someone who will, oh. Er , where did I say any such thing ? ??????????????????????????

I have no overall gripe with Mcleish - mine is with an owner who wanted a cheap Manager for a cheap approach - but I have to say there are too many games where the only thing we have is defensive stability - the other stuff is good when it fires but htat is too rare. The single biggest thing missing is Passion, followed by creativity. he can do a litttle about the latter, but should be able to generate the former, and doesn't appear able. On another thread someone joked about Keegan as his Number 2 - that ought to do it !

I think the most worrying aspect is that throughout the eighties and nineties you could afford to 'slump' and still get back in the race. If we arent careful we will be so far off the Top - 5 ? 6 ? 7 ? ,...we will never get back. Of course Man City have spent, but they haven't left Spurs or Liverpool behind - yet - and more importantly Spurs and Liverpool are leaving us behind, as will Everton one of these days. I just don't think there is any real evidence of Randy improving our world profile, our Midlands profile, our overall outlook, or anything. And these days he appears disinterested. Attendances are not dowm because of Man City, but because of fans disenchantment with Villa. We aren't saying we have to win all the time, but we are not - as you rightly say - even competing for anything more than 7th-10th. And Randy is a wealthy man, and allegedly, a Villa fan, so in that context I don't even think his spending has been much to shout about - and a lot of that has been loans. If he genuinely feels our level with him is what you say it is, he should come out and say so, and accept that he will get rid of HIS Club if a decent offer is out there.

Spot On. It's not 'the usual over reaction', and it's not to do with Zillions of Pounds, it is to do with a poor performance, lacking skill, energy, commitment, belief. And containing poor defending. The defeatist attitude starts at the top of the Club and goes right through to the players and fans. Randy Lerner has over 500 MILLION pounds and Villa have the biggest uncontested catchment area in the Country, are people really going to shrug and say' it's modern football, it's Man City' and accept it. We were, for over an hour, dreadful.

I only have 1 question for Randy, and those who support him. I don't really see that any other matters a lot. How much further forward are Villa in their quest for Trophies in the 5 plus years you have been in charge compared to the dying embers of a much criticised Ellis regime ?

Who left for money and Champions League. You can hardly blame Randy for that? Losing one is understandable, two is careless, three is disturbing, all 4 plus our best Manager for Donkeys is a catastrophe and I simply can't see how he is getting such a soft ride.

It ironically says everything about our Club that the most heart warming moment of the day was Milner not celebrating a wonderful goal. This - and last - season is not just about the rise of City, but much more importantly for us the decline of Villa. And regardless of the reasons, pitfalls and fears, that is down to the owner.

Totally Spot On.

I hate all this 'well it is Man City' - there have already been, and will continue to be, Clubs that give them a good run in any game, and they will get beaten. Too defeatist by miles. We have been poor. The last thing we need is to find excuses.

I have nothing against Mcleish, he's done ok with little backing, and I missed the first 20 min, but must disagree with those who say we are doing ok ? We are awful. So what that it is Man City ? Anyone see Norwich at Man U the other week, and other examples this year ? I've seen 3rd Division Teams compete better at big Clubs in the Cup. Where is our movement, running off the ball, closing down ? Even if we can't pick a pass - which we are woefully unable to do at the moment - we should be doing those things. City look off the boil - although obviously always a threat - and we are allowing them to get by. Very Poor, like the players have the 'it's Man City' approach of too many on here. Hopefully Mcleish wants, and can get, a reaction like he did at QPR. We need to take a fight to them. (Oh, and although I have no problem wit hthe guy generally, what on earth is Heskey doing ?) A rocket from Mcleish and a sneaked win or good Draw. More of this and 3/4-0.

Equally he is responsible for the first half performance and the set up of the team which again was dire even though we were promised a response after the Bolton match. The second half performance was better but only for a short period, and again we didn't create enogh chances, to score enough goals to put the game to bed and we end up with a draw. My point is that it does not appear to be his choice wehn we play the way we did first half, but it does appear that what we enjoyed in the 2nd half is what he is after also, therefore comments about it being him that is the problem due to his way of playing seem to be incorrect. Yes you can then argue that it is his job to get that latter type of performance, and whether he is up to it, but that is different to saying he wants the negative approach. In my view I think he may yet show that he is up to getting us playing the latter way more frequently - I think he has inherited a problem of players feeling tense and lacking the freedom nad confidence to go out and play. And I think he recognises it - my own theory, with litttle hard evidence, is that he can't believe how Fckd up many of the players were by GH, and he is struggling to get them to play properly. But I think he acheived that for a while on Sunday, which bodes well. The fact that we are still fragile and struggled as QPR made a fight of it doesn't overshadow that for me. In short , had he come out with the usual Mnagerial platitudes after 2 halves like the first I would have wanted him sacked, but his clear and open recognition that he no more wants that than we do means I'd now like to see him given time to restore their self belief and see how we do, whilst not expecting miracles I stil think our First 11 are as good as anybodys outside the Top 5.

I don't understand those of you saying our performance is typical of Mcleish ? Didn't you hear his own post match comments ? He was as annoyed as us at the first Half and asked for exactly what we got in the Second. He made precisely the criticisms we have - so how is it 'his style/tactics/way etc ? Prejudice ?

I think he is as annoyed as us, I think the players belief and sense of freedom has gone, due to last years turmoil and GH in particular.

I can't see sense in criticising Mcleish - he made the same observations as us after the game in respect of the first half, and seems as annoyed about it, not for the first time. He got a reaction 2nd half which is at least part of his job, and I thought we played some fair stuff for a bit then. I'm no expert but it seems to me he is dealing with a Shell Shocked Team - I think Luke Youngs - last week - comments were interesting in that respect....I think the players have suffered from MON going and the shambles that followed all through the Club. I actually quite like Mcleish, I think he has started where needed, the defence, and wants a lot more, but is finding the players need work (confidence ? less fear ?) and I am going to guess that GH and Co played a fair part in that. A lot of teams haven't done great so far, not just us, and being unbeaten is a good start - comparisons with Blues are misplaced, we can build on defensive solidity - and Mcleish seems to want us to - wheras it was all Blues had.