Awol

I don't have a dog in this fight but the OFSTED inspections seem to indicate that many of the top performing Comprehensives are Catholic Schools (likewise with CoE Schools). Also it seems a bit harsh to call 1.2 billion Catholics "words removed", or are you only refering to the teachers in Catholic Schools? Out of interest do you describe teachers of other non-Christian faiths in the same way?

Good effort England, good win.

So the EU Parliament should accept the need to reduce their proposed spending instead, in line with what the national governments have agreed to put in (around 900 billion euros, I think) and then there will not be a defict budget. They don't seem to be keen on that though because this is the first big chance to flex the new muscles of EU institutions as laid down by the Lisbon Treaty and to set a precedent by asserting the primacy of the EU Parliament over the collective will of the national governments. I repeat, that they may be so craven as to hide behind a secret ballot (or even be able to have one at all) should knock the blinkers from even the most slavish and unthinking EUrophile eyes. Frankenstein's monster is coming to life.

indeed, the UK's net contribution to the EU budget is still rising over the next seven years, just not as much as it would have done without this deal. That said the President of the EU Parliament (a disgusting creature called Martin Schulz) has said he will use the powers granted to him by the Lisbon Treaty and refuse to sign off on any reduction in the proposed budget, essentially scuppering the will of the 27 member state governments. Could be an interesting situaion if he doesn't back down. You make it sound quite personal. I do dislike him yes, but calling Shulz a "disgusting creature" is a) entirely accurate imo, and quite mild given the language used to describe domestic politicians on here! What else would you call a man who is now proposing that the MEP's be given a secret ballot so they can vote down the budget without their national governments or indeed, their constituents knowing how they voted? After all with a gutful of austerity at home we wouldn't want poor MEP's being accountable to their potentially enraged elctorates, would we? What's more, if 1/5 of MEP's ask Shulz (in secret) for a secret ballot, then they'll get it....but there are no problems with the EU and democratic accountability, move along please.. You're right Peter, so we have a situation where the EU Parliament could refuse to acknowledge the will of the national governments that constitute the EU, but may insist on making that refusal in secret... Roll on the referendum.

indeed, the UK's net contribution to the EU budget is still rising over the next seven years, just not as much as it would have done without this deal. That said the President of the EU Parliament (a disgusting creature called Martin Schulz) has said he will use the powers granted to him by the Lisbon Treaty and refuse to sign off on any reduction in the proposed budget, essentially scuppering the will of the 27 member state governments. Could be an interesting situaion if he doesn't back down.

An Uncle traced my Maternal Grandfather's line back about 1000 years. Most of that time the family was in and around Northumberland then further back in time it went north to Clouston in the Orkney Islands, then further back again to Norway - where it became untraceable. I've never seen it be he had (and my Aunt probably still has) the whole thing mapped out and mounted on a wall in their house.

Far too witty to be yours Tony, but still, very good. Apparently the next big one for the army of under grad diggers is Alfred the Great, buried somewhere in Winchester. That really would be a find, the man who made England.

Why?

By "nicer" I mean a complete lady garden.

Quite possibly the best choice on offer in 2015.

Normal service resumed..

We look like Barcelona!

A mate who used to live in Wall outside Shenstone had the same thing when they put the BNRR in, they gave him shit money for it too.

Yes hope not, but in a naval campaign Japan would hand the Chinese their collective arse on a silver plate. JDF is far superior to the PLAN - at the moment.

That's a good one. Shows how much potential there for a right royal rumble in that part of the world.

This was summed up very neatly in an editorial from the German newspaper Bild, yesterday: Therein lies the problem.

If only they'd joined the Euro.

Not if we leave it doesn't. Not sure exactly what you mean with reference to Cameron's position?

Snipped from the Condem Gov thread: Seems to be a split response: Southern Europe saying 'hell no', northern Europe saying 'maybe they've got a point here...', the French saying "we ate u anglo-saxon peeeigs". The important part of that is the net contributors (excluding Les Bleus)to the EU are the one's who seem to be more open to this. Maybe that's because Cameron is saying he thinks the choice to make these changes should be opened up to all EU members and a few of the more dynamic nations might be thinking 'yes, we quite fancy a bit of that too'.

that was the image in my head after reading LL's post. It would undoubtedly be a complex process and I don't think anyone has the answers yet as to how the various scenarios play out, but in principle it seems unlikely that either the UK or any of the remaining EU nations (excluding the French) would be keen to poison the well, as it were. Another factor that will undoubtedly shape this debate is the lifting of restrictions on movement within the EU for Bulgarians and Romanians in Jan next year. If as some predict the UK has another massive influx of unskilled labour from eastern Europe as a result then it's hard to imagine that not having a significant affect on this debate. Worth noting that the freedom of movement inside the EU is part of the single market agreement and not something Cameron is looking to reform.

As I understand it, Article 50 of the Lisbon Treaty is invoked and the EU is then legally bound to negotiate a free trade agreement with the departing nation. How it affects the EU nationals residing in Stalag Luft III at the point of UK departure I don't know, but logic would dictate that maasive repatriations are not going to happen, just as I wouldnt expect Brit's to be forced the other way on mass. The scare stories that get deployed around this debate over time are going to be horrendous though.

You make it sound like leaving the EU means the country becoming Colditz! I don't think there is any chance of people who are here and settled being hoiked out by men in jackboots, although that's probably the kind of image quite a lot of people would try to portray in the run up to a vote.

First of all Bicks is right, there won't be a Tory majority in 2015 unless they eventually find Maddie tied up under Miliband's bed. In that sense it's a bluff from Cameron to a) buy off his own party and unite them behind him, and try to stem the bleeding of support from the Tory base to UKIP. However I think it will be an issue used so effectively against Labour who currently oppose giving the public a say that they will change their position before 2015 and make a referendum part of their election manifesto too. Therefore I think the next Parliament will see a referendum, regardless of who gets in. As to 'in or out' it would depend entirely on what the theoretical negotiation could deliver. If it was the relationship we have today versus leaving then I'd vote for out, but Cameron's intent to enshrine the principle that the UK will not participate in "ever closer union" is a game changer for me, if he can get it. That would exclude us from the on going drive towards a Federal super-state that the EU institutions openly support, thus mantaining UK as a soveriegn state within a looser assocation of democratic nations. My personal beef with the EU has always been based on democracy, i.e. the elctorate must be able to sack the people who make our laws and replace them if we so choose. The EU has removed that ability (approx 70% of our laws are made in Europe, beyond accountability to the people) which is something I cannot accept as being right or democratic, in fact it's a dangerous departure from common sense, imo. The EU undoubtedly delivers benefits but equally they come at a cost so the analysis currently being undertaken across government will form a good starting point to begin informing the public on the issues. Hopefully that debate will focus on substance and filter out the shrill background noise from both sides. Fat chance of that happening but we'll see. Read the other day that the CIA covertly poured millions into the "yes" campaign in 1975, so expect the same sort of underhand tactics again this time round - the BBC which gets a nice fat EU grant will no doubt also be blowing the trumpet for Brussels. It's interesting that many of the great and the good who say that an EU exit would leave the UK a baron and salted wasteland are exactly the same people who said the sky would fall and virgins would combust if we didn't join the Euro. Why anyone should now believe a word of what they say given their track record of incompetent analysis is highly debatable. Whichever way it goes (and I think we all know Cameron isn't making a principled decision to empower the electorate here) it is absolutely right to give the public a say and confer democratic legitimacy on the future relationship of the UK with Europe. In 1975 people were told they were joining a Common Market, not a Political Union. Heath (nonce?) later admitted he'd lied his chops off quite deliberately about what people were voting on back then. If we are going to become part of a Federal European Union (and if we stay in without any change in the relationship then that is the eventual destination) then the decision is for the British people to make, and them alone.

The government can't 'legislate people richer' other than having the most cosmetic impacts through *cough* entitlements. That might put an extra fiver a week through Tesco's but won't see people buying widescreens or Nikon cameras. I'm interested though, apart from Peter's compulsory purchasing of high streets scheme, what should the government be doing to maintain the retail sector when disposable income levels are, on average, on par with those of a Church mouse whose wife has run off with all the cheese?

Well done, I didn't think anything could make me laugh after that shambles but you've nailed it!