Awol

Reports that two Iranian Fajr-5 rockets struck in the area of Tel Aviv (fired from Gaza). Ground invasion looks almost certain now, imo.

The Israeli's live in a neighbourhood that has always been rough, surrounded by countries whose already religious societies are currently being swept by a new wave of fundamentalism that interprets compromise as weakness and treats it with contempt. Neither side is blameless but if you poke a lion often enough it shouldn't come as a surprise when you get bitten.

Hammas fire rockets at Israel to try and kill civilians. Israel targets the Hammas militants and (very sadly) there are also civilian casualties because Hammas deliberately fires from schools, mosques, next to hospitals, etc. However you cut it up that is not the same thing. If Hammas were not plastering southern Israel with rocket fire the Israelis would not be responding.

Nothing to do with the fact they've been rocketed to buggery in Southern Israel from Gaza recently (130 in the last two days alone), Chindie? If someone did that to the UK I'd be expecting our leaders to order RAF assets to knock spots of those doing the firing.

*rolly eyes* Yes it was shocking to make that mistake I agree, however it was recovered and hasn't had a material affect on this case. Is that so difficult to understand and acknowledge? I would like him out of the UK, if that means one more jihadi windbag walking around the Levant it really makes bugger all difference there but it will make the UK safer. I'll say this again in case you missed it: It is the courts decision. And you say I don't read post? lolz. I said the Jordanian legal system has found him guilty, I don't have that authority..

Peter that's totally irrelevant to the point at hand though, isn't it? Like Drat's diversionary comment about the EDL and passports. Yes, if only it was that simple... They can't expose sources or methods of intelligence collection in court without totally compromising future operations. Besides which the alleged offences are in Jordan not the UK (apart from the obvious identity fraud you seem unmoved by)so he should not be a British problem. Jordan is our ally and despite those good relations guarantee after guarantee about his physical and legal treatment has been sought and given. It's getting bloody rude not to send him back. For our own citizens yes, when foreign terror suspects enter the country by criminal means then that sets a precedent for the 'rights' they should subsequently be entitled to, imo.

You pointed out a mix up with dates on a previous appeal which was a mistake, but it didn't have any material affect on this judgement. You haven't made any other points other than stating she made mistakes without actually saying what they were. What were they? Which is down to the courts, not the government(s). I am not stating he is guilty, the Jordanian legal system is. But yes, I would support any solution that got him out of the UK, by politicians of whichever stripe.

In this case a history of terrorism.. Peter, do you think that a foreign national openly supporting AL Qaeda and wanted elsewhere on charges of terrorism should be allowed to remain in the UK, where the security services consider him to be a clear danger to the population? If so, why?

Fixed

A vocal defence? I said that in this case she's done nothing wrong and yet you seem to be trying to blame May for this judgement. Can you explain exactly why it is her fault, please? It is consistent with attempts to get him out of the country (the pardon would have been in Jordan). That would have been the best result for the British people so again, what is wrong with that?

In Jordan, where he should be. They've guaranteed not to use evidence gained under torture in his retrial (which they promised us as a condition of his planned deportation)and even the judges in this appeal acknowledged that. It's an utter farce.

Qatada is a convicted terrorist in his adopted land of Jordan (he is a Palestinian by birth) and entered the UK on a false passport. That alone should guarantee him a ticket home. He is obviously considered an ongoing (and very expensive)threat to the UK people and the fact he is still here defies belief and common sense. I find it incredible some people are actually defending a well known preacher of hate and supporter of Al Qaeda. May has no choice but to continue the appeals process now (she can petition to appeal again) but she hasn't made any mistakes in the matter other than premature triumphalism that the UK would finally be rid of this filthy and dangerous leech.

Well they seem to be dropping like flies now, although interesting to note that after 50 odd days in post before resigning Mr Entwhistle has walked away with a severance package of one year's salary, or £450,000. Of public money. For failure. This from an organisation that relentlessly bashes i) the corporate bonus culture, and ii) bonuses that reward failure. Not much hypocrisy there, eh?

#343 Nice one, Trigger!

Given the gravity of this issue it's pretty sickening to see people trying to score political points out of it. The victims and the truth deserve better, frankly.

Greek MPs vote for cuts worth €13.5bn as riots rage in Athens At least they are not trying to deny it any more.

Of course it is, they are our Dictators! On a serious note the countries around these parts are literally bricking it about Iranian ambitions in the region. If it does all go pear shaped in the end surely it's better to have their pilots flying our kit to fight the Persian hordes than our pilots doing the job instead? Plus we'll make a shit load of money into the bargain. Proxies FTW. EDIT: It's not a growing block, these countries are simply not acquainted with democracy. The culture is tribal above all else and introducing full democracy in many of these places is a recipe for disaster. It took us over 250 years to go from rule by divine right to universal suffrage. These guys are not simply going to become clones of Norway et al. overnight if the opportunity to do so is presented. It's hard to overstate the political immaturity (in a western democratic sense) of the average Arab.

4 more years of Obamarama then, marginally better than the alternative if you're not an American. I'd imagine the fallout from the Republicans is going to be bitter to say the least and that New Jersey Governor will be less than popular with his party after basically endorsing Obama.

It's something UKIP have been saying for ages, give constituents the right to recall their MP to face re-election if a certain number of them submit a petition demanding it to the the local branch of whichever party the MP is a member of. It would of course make MP's accountable to their electorate and therefore weaken the central control of the whip's office - which is why the Tories and Labour are less than keen on the idea. Nadine Dorries is nothing but a horrible attention whore. EDIT: Just seen Snowy's link, didn't realise Zac Goldsmith (+1 for him) had put it forward but it won't go anywhere unfortunately.

Self moderated to protect the feelings of the over sensitive..

Like saying "all Tories are w**kers" or similar, as you have done on many occasions? Civilising VT political debates is a great idea, it just needs those partisan maniacs to be told to chill out when they get all frothy. We're all grown ups and there is no reason why we can't pull it off. OT will be a much better place for it because smart and interesting people will re-engage. We're allowed to disagree without being dicks about it. I'll go first and pledge not to be a dick. Who's with me?

Here's a thing. Colleagues of mine want to sell food and medical supplies to Iran, but they are refraining because if they did then I, as a senior member of the company, could be prosecuted by my own government and/or abducted by the Americans to face trial in a country I've never visited. To re-cap, western sanctions against Iraq pre-2003 led directly to the deaths of 500,000 children. This is the kind of stuff we attribute to the Nazis (and screw Goodwin's Law on this occasion), Soviets or Chinese, not us 'civilised' people in the west. Why do we believe it makes a difference whether it's Obama or Romney, Cameron or Miliband, Bill or Ben that takes office after our show elections? It pains me to admit that we, the West, are a bunch of stinking hypocrites happy to starve innocent people for political objectives. These are not the values of our people but believe me, trying to explain that to folks living outside our bubble is...challenging. I'm a realist and if Iran develops nukes then for our own preservation we need to bomb that programme back to the stone age, but it doesn't justify what happens to innocents in our name. Obama or Romney, Bill or Ben, it's all the same shit and the sooner we, the people who actually uphold our values realise it, the better.

Edit

If nothing else, hopefully this constructive discussion will prevent more objectional postings on this forum that aim to explicitly link UKIP and BNP supporters. Wanting the UK to independent doesn't make you a fascist, a racist or a *gasp* "little Englander".

The most disturbing far right scenario with reference to Europe is found through an appraisal of Golden Dawn in Greece. Unashamedly fascist (to a degree that would make that chimp Griffin mess himself sexually) and increasingly popular, even taking over the role of the police in some areas - by which I mean acting like Brown Shirts pre '33. Five years ago would anyone have predicted the fully fledged rise of jackbooted psycho's in Europe? If other EU countries (as seems very likely) are forced over a fiscal cliff, what risk that a similar situation will be replicated elsewhere?