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Just in the interests of balance, do you consider Channel 4 to be a decent source of impartial news? From 2009 after the last European elections:Who voted BNP and why? The article is worth reading in full and the link to the full YouGov poll results is on it so you can see the raw data. BTW Drat01, how does a party (UKIP) that advocates making free trade agreements all over the world get labelled by you as "inward looking"? Your comments on that point have been demonstrated as being factually incorrect, yet bizarrely you just keep on repeating them. Why?

I think Obama is a dick, but Romney is undoubtedly worse.

The Police knew what he was doing and didn't act, not sure what the Queen is supposed to do, if she even heard the gossip that he was perv. In the context of the stuff going around at the moment (up to and including a former PM, FFS) the revolting Mr Savile was small time. Interesting that Newsnight once again pulled back from naming names a few days ago. One wonders if there is a mutual understanding between the BBC and the politicians not to publicly out the other's nonce circles?

Very much this, as you say if the rumours are true then the Police, CPS, Local Justices, Social Services, national media, broadcasters and Westminster have engineered a conspiracy over decades that if presented as a work of fiction would be laughed out of the publishers. The question is in this age of public access to information can the establishment still successfully close ranks to suppress it or will people power and truth prevail? I couldn't agree more that the consequences of full disclosure would be shattering and totally unpredictable, but I pray to God that it happens.

The difference being people of many cultures left their home nations with the intent to become Americans, so they were deliberately joining a mixing pot of cultures in a country with no heritage or history (sorry Levi et al) of its own. Europe is utterly different with 1000's of years of history as distinct racial and ethnic groups with established culture under their belts. The problem isn't that the EU is young, it's that Europe is very old.

Hmmm. I would have thought he was more into illicit cash, than illicit gash.

Internet tradecraft, Peter. I only pretend to be a nutter.

Putting a finger in the air and taking some wild guesses.... There will be a second major bank bailout probably linked with the unravelling of the euro currency in its current form, leading to a general revolt against the current financial system (driven through social media) and rebalancing in favour of the real economy bringing the bankers post war party to an end. The EU itself will probably survive but hopefully in the form of a trading block (as it was originally sold) with more flexible and slimmed down institutions to enable cooperation between nations on issues of mutual interest. Nationalism will rise and southern Europe may see the return of authoritarian regimes, dependent on the depth of the coming financial crisis. I don't see any evidence at all for the contention that national borders will be less relevant in 15 years time, if anything the opposite will be true as Europe is buffeted by events (probably a series of wars) in the Middle East and North Africa and the terrorist threat from extreme Islamist movements increases - from within and without. Civil liberties will continue to decline and the internet will be more tightly controlled. The generation that turns 50 in 15 years time will be poorer than their parents were at the same age and the ageing population will put unsustainable pressure on the social democratic welfare state model, eventually making it unaffordable. People will therefore be expected to do much more for themselves. Energy supply will be a massive issue leading to increased use of fossil fuels and a likely regression in the short term on addressing climate change, particularly as increasing industrialisation (and CO2 emissions) in the developing world make even continent wide action redundant. This will probably open the door to a closer relationship with Russia due to its huge reserves and regimes unfriendly to the west gaining power in the Middle East. We will be involved in further conflicts there and some form of WMD will be used by a participant. Hopefully this will drive nation states to invest directly into innovation around new renewable energy sources (other than windmills...) and if successful that could lay the foundations for another industrial revolution, but that is unlikely to happen in the next 15 years. The French will still be w**kers.

Fair play to him for calling them lefty tossers, they clearly were.

You don't think it's true that those are the alternatives, or that more MP's are starting to realise those are the alternatives? You may think it's obsessive to point out as often as possible that this is the reality facing us but when intelligent people clearly don't recognise it then it can't be repeated often enough, imo. Only the British establishment and fourth estate bother to dissemble about the EU's ultimate political destination, our continental cousins are remarkably candid about it. That being the case the only real options open are in or out, there is no "halfway house" as such an option runs entirely contrary to the stated aims of the EU! This is the fundamental point that people are clearly not getting, the very principle of ever closer union intends to eventually preclude a 'pick and mix' approach. For example EU wide harmonisation of VAT is openly stated as being on the Brussels agenda. You seem to think the EU has limited ambitions where in reality the aim is to complete subsume individual national sovereignty. After Lisbon comes into force qualified majority voting comes into force. That means the UK can no longer veto legislation made outside this country by people we don't elect from being imposed here. It destroys the very foundation of our democracy and independence by ensuring we cannot remove those who make our laws if we so chose. If getting very pissed off, frustrated and angry about that is 'obsessive' then fine. I'd say not feeling that we is massively irresponsible. Youguv have had those who would vote to leave the EU fairly steady at about 48% for a while, those in favour of remaining runs at about 32%. That doesn't look like like a wide majority against the independence viewpoint to me..

Two things, Drat01. First, please explain in what universe UKIP's policy of being able to make unilateral free trade agreements around the globe is inward looking? Your characterisation of what they propose as inward looking is bewilderingly nonsensical. Second point, obviously this wasn't a vote to call for an EU exit, what we are seeing - finally - is a gradual recognition by politicians on all sides that we have two choices regarding the EU: full integration to a federal superstate through the stated EU aim of "ever closer union", or political independence as the United Kingdom. Clegg is being honest when he says that the carrot dangled by Cameron of repatriation of powers is a lie. it cannot and will not happen because the EU will not allow it. This fact is slowly dawning on our incredibly ignorant politicians and every vote against the EU (binding on the government or not) crystallizes that understanding a little further.

I wouldn't condemn people who have wronged in the past for changing course and doing the right thing now. I'm sure some of the Labour MP's did it for purely cynical reasons but others have finally woken up to the reality of EU membership for the UK. Gisela Stuart MP (one of those who drafted the Lisbon Treaty) is a case in point and has repeatedly stated the dangers the EU poses to democracy. It shouldn't matter what colour rosette they wear, if they are right then support them. Not as long as Cameron is in charge, he's only slightly less of an EUphile than his pal Clegg. According to pretty much every opinion poll on the subject for years if the people get a vote on it then the UK will leave, hence we will not get a vote and the only way out is if the EU collapses around us. It's taking an awfully long time but the latter is not an unthinkable outcome: Greek death spiral raises heat for German-bloc creditors

The rise of Fascism is the now traditional response to economic misery in modern Europe. The Greeks are being sacrificed on the alter of the single currency, creating the conditions for their society to implode. They are not blameless for their current condition but Greece using the Euro currency is the definition of square peg into round hole. Brussels are kicking the can of Greek default further down the road again return for another round of massive cuts that are compounding the problem because they can't devalue their currency to compensate and regain competitiveness. The Northern European plan is for Southern Europe to bear the weight of economic rebalancing within the EZ - a 10-20 year process at least. Eventually the Greeks and the Spaniards will revolt against this and it will all come tumbling down. Until then the cause of the problem will be ignored and/or misdiagnosed by the ideologues in Brussels.

Would you mind explaining the relevance of your post, please? I don't understand what a French energy company has to do with the discussion.

Did you even read the last sentence of my post? lol. Er, no. The problem with the economy hasn't passed me by, it is our diagnosis of the problem that differs. It is the root of the problem, yes. Yes they absolutely should have done better, and it's still not too late imo, unfortunately the best time to force bankers into behavioural change was when they were on their knees in 2008. Instead the government of the day chose to use our money to bail them out with no strings attached and the real opportunity was missed. I and others said that at the time on here as well. Again, you are either not reading or deliberately misreading what is being written. Labour set the framework within which the banks went crazy and egged them on from the sidelines. You may feel that Labour bear no responsibility for the subsequent disaster, I don't. Equally I think the current government are going down a blind alley because they refuse to address the underlying structural problems in the economy by bringing the banks to heel. See Risso's post above, there really isn't anything else to add to that subject. Finally and for the umpteenth time, I am not a Tory supporter but voted for them last time because the alternatives as PM were Gordon Brown (literally barking mad) or Nick Clegg (the political equivalent of smegma). It won't stop you repeating it again but hey, I'm used to that.

You're right, it's terrible news. As the article by AEP linked by Peter on the last page addresses, the problems in the real economy are caused by a lack of bank lending, not cuts that are, in the context of total government spend, really quite small. Until the banks fess up to the true depth of the hole they are in and write down/off the bad debt (and no more bailouts, let them go if they are wrecked) then the economy will continue to bump along the bottom with some negative and some positive Q's. This point has been made many times in these threads by myself and others, over a period of years now.. I don't think he misses many chances to remind the country of Labour's contribution to the current mess we are in, but as you bring it up... Brown, Balls and little Ed Miliband were the architects of an economic policy that encouraged the foxes in the City to raid the chicken coop - and they virtually destroyed private pensions, flogged the gold reserves at bargain basement prices, etc, etc. I think you misdiagnose the problem, and before you say it yes I am abroad, but still do business in an out of the UK on a weekly basis.

Why is it not? Isn't some good news better than no good news?

It would be funny if the subject wasn't so serious.

I'm not sure it is down to being taught, people know when something they see offends them on a moral level, it is more perhaps a feeling of helplessness when confronted with Starbucks, Vodaphone et al. Agreed and people should kick off more about all sorts of stuff they know to be wrong. Perhaps the focus should be on how to get those people to do as you suggest in relation to the big stuff, rather than dismiss the importance of also dealing with the little things - which when rolled together still represent a huge amount of public money that is then not available to school kids, sick people, etc.

Bottom line the guy claiming and working is a thief. If you saw someone stealing a car then you'd shop him. If you knew your boss was on the fiddle you'd shop him. The situation you describe is no different. Not being able to right the wrongs of the whole world is not a justification to do nothing about the things you can put right. Don't listen to the rest of the moral equivalence on here, you're instinct was to do the right thing. Nothing's changed.

That would be like invading Haiti, the day after the earthquake.

link The funny thing is that NATO doesn't have a nuclear first strike policy.. Do any of these people have an understanding of defence?? He's resigned over a factually inaccurate issue!!

Dude, suicide is not the answer.