PIW

More like Man City inspired by David White at home.

Aye, Oslo born and raised I was strip searched in Oslo! Well, at the airport.

Great place. Was there a month ago. Stopped at Fish Hoek so my 2 year-old could have a run on the sand. And there, just 20 meters or so offshore was abloody great White. When the waves came in you could see its silhouette. Scary even when you're standing on the ebach. Anyway, without taking tours you'll see whales, dolphins, and seals. Brilliant.

How do you know they do wrong things? how do I know children do wrong things? Kind of stands to reason.

Those of us that are parents know that are little loved ones sometimes do the wrong things. Sometimes they need a telling off, a smack, or someother disciplinary measure. Now according to those that follow the tenet of a deity he/it/she loves us more than we can possibly imagine. Well if this is so why would he put is in this den of iniquity and if we falter even a little he'll condemn us to burn in hell for eternity? A bit much from a heavy handed father don't you think?

There wouldn't be any Sikh-Muslim rivalry going on here, would there? :winkold: There is no "rivalry" in religion :? It is against Sikh Rehat or "code of conduct" to consume a ritualistic meat. Sikhs believe in Chatka/Jhatka meat which is to kill the animal with one blow. You have to suck it's cock? Jaysus.

To turn that round on you, does it not matter at all the level of animal suffering? Should we mistreat them all their lives as they're going to end up dead anyway? It matters surely because animal suffering should be kept to a minimum. Halal killing causes them more suffering and pain than is necessary, all in the name of religion. We should be above that in a modern society. I'd concede the point if the argument was one concerning animal welfare grounds alone and whether they have the right to a life with as little suffering as possible. But the argument here is about the moment of their death. If the thrust of the argument was, and has always been, the human search for the best way to kill their prey then it would be a fair issue to wonder if the halal way is the best way. However, this has been brought up, as ever, as a stick to beat muslim's with. That's why I take the stance I do. The RSPCA and other groups have carried out lots of research, and have concluded that is far more cruel than if they are stunned first. I'm not sure what grievance you'd imagine the RSPCA has against Muslims. The research also says exactly the same thing about Kosher meat, and the Jews are not exactly bessie mates with Muslims are they? As I said that's another point for another time. Do I think the halal way is the best way? Not really. Do I think its barbaric? Not really. But if i started to consider how little fluffy bunny went from happily springing along the meadow to being pebble-dashed down my toilet I'd probably never eat meat again.

To turn that round on you, does it not matter at all the level of animal suffering? Should we mistreat them all their lives as they're going to end up dead anyway? It matters surely because animal suffering should be kept to a minimum. Halal killing causes them more suffering and pain than is necessary, all in the name of religion. We should be above that in a modern society. I'd concede the point if the argument was one concerning animal welfare grounds alone and whether they have the right to a life with as little suffering as possible. But the argument here is about the moment of their death. If the thrust of the argument was, and has always been, the human search for the best way to kill their prey then it would be a fair issue to wonder if the halal way is the best way. However, this has been brought up, as ever, as a stick to beat muslim's with. That's why I take the stance I do.

Its more than that. Its pure hypocrisy and intolerant prejudice. The media have taught us to hate muslims and so we will dislike whatever they represent. Halal is 'barbaric' (and a stun gun to the head isn't?- its killing. End of). The West always needs a public enemy (the Yellow peril, the Soviets, now its The Muslims) to justify our interference anywhere and anywhere. personally I'd like to stroke and cuddle animals and give them a kiss until they die. It'll make me and them happier. Until then I couldn't give a shite. nor will i pretend to just to hide a misguided prejudice.

I wonder how many of you who consider it a barbaric practise are thinking the same when you are sitting down at the local curry house ordering your chicken rogan josh? If the animal's being killed then why are we suddenly deciding it should be killed one way or another? If you think killing all animals is wrong then I can understand your point. But if the argument is simply,'please kill it like this because it makes me feel better', then that is just hypocritical of any meat eater.

makoun was poor. ireland has been poor but he has the potential to change a game. makoun didn't. that's why he's still here. That coupled with the ridiculous wage he's on.

Not taking anything away from Wenger (well I am) but he was just in the right place at the right time. He came into Arsenal when they had a solid back 5, bergkamp, ian Wright, and Paul merson. he was lucky and so were Arsenal (and France) that there were a group of great French players waiting to be put into a team - Henry, Viera, Petit, Pires, Anelka, Wiltord - which went on to form the back bone of the brilliant French team of 98 onwards. he added a few more and got amazing money from Anelka and Overmars. however, when the back 5 went that's when his troubles began. the French starts have now all gone and the legacy is teh Emirates, a period of unparralleled success for them, and money. Wenger has still done some good work in the years that followed that early success and has bought some good some bad. As do all managers. but it is cklear that defensively he has not bought particulalry well. he has never bought a decent kepper in and Lehamnn was only okay. Afetr the old guard left then apart from the odd decent defender - who all left of theior own volition - Wenger has never really been able to reproduce the solidity at teh back that he inherited in the mid 90s. So, whilst he clearly ahs done a lot of good at Arsenal i think his luck has run out. he must still have good contacts and he still brings the odd good player over from france/Europe. But it was easier to get a good 16 year-old from barcelona promising first-team football when Arsenal; were at teh top. But if they were to chase a 16 year-old fabregas now and faced competition from Chelsea/Man City/Man U would he be as lucky? i doubt it. Also, those frnch players were signing for a French manager making their decision easier. The failed Venglos experiment aside Wenger was seen as ground breaking as wa sthe appointment of a foreign manager. nowadays they're ten a penny in the English game. Has Wenger got better contacts than Mancini? Villas-Boas has got Mourinho's ear and i'd bet contacts, Fergie can get who he wants up to a point. The games changing and Wenger no longer has the clout he was lucky enough to have in one isoalted period in the 90s. fair play to him he used what he had and did brilliantly. but that's gone now. And I think Arsenal will also falter in the next few seasons.

Sub Sub Swervedriver Mega city Four No hold on they were shite.

U2 are wank and Bono is a Grade A **** prick. That's all.

Wasn't it our gold reserves that were sold off? Not all of it? You'd imagine that our reserves weren't that great considering the amount of gold around.

The Housemartins. The Smiths. ABBA? Ride. Curve. Chapterhouse. Bridewell Taxis.

Actually to refine my point. if we don't win at Sunderland - and who really fancies us to do that? - then even a draw at home against Norwich is the start of the end.

I actually feel sorry for him. i really do. You can see that he really wants to do well here and this is a big opportunity for him. the biggest he's had. the [problem being that he just isn't good enough. A poor decision by the board and I think many of us could see this coming/ leaving aside where he came from - which is bad enough in my eyes - Mcleish just simply isn't good enough. how long should he get? Until the situation gets so bad and we fall into the bottom 3 again? Who would want to take us over then? As I've said elsewhere the writing is already on the wall should we lose at home to Norwich. losing away in front of a thousand or so people is easy. Doing it in front of 30 odd thousand isn't.

The Housemartins.

Just read this, and totally agree. If Martin Laursen had of done that we'd still be giving applause now for his commitment. Sort of. laursen would have been applauded because he had already racked up so many brownie points that a bad challeneg can be overlooked and turned into a good one in the fan's eyes. Whichever way you look at uit it was a poor challenge. An old fashioned one where a defender goes througha forward. The sort iof challenege that used to break bones and put players out for a long time. That's why it was outlawed. It was a very poor challenege. i'm not sure about it beuing a red. In Europe it would have been. A yellow here. But if a red was given I would have been peed off but recognise that it was a 50-50 decision.

It was never a sending off. very poor decision. however, int he run up to the incident I was thinking that Herd waa sending-off waiting to happen. The fact that a shit decision got him before a rekless challenge did is a moot point.

I put forward some questions in response to what you posted. It's a shame that this quoted post would suggest that you have no interest in trying to answer them. Why should he? its irrelephant.

another punathon? tusk tusk

wasn't that what the previous government did by wooing Gaddafi and freeing Ali al-Megrah because BP asked them to ? Maybe Cameron saw the wind of change and gambled ..maybe he acted because it was the right thing to do ..you have to remember that despite Obama now trying to jump on the bandwagon the US didn't want to get involved in Libya so the UK and French went alone to start with be interesting to see how it pans out .. bit of luck the cheap oil will follow though :winkold: Saw the wind of change? Please. mr opportunist gambled with inflation to try and grab more oil. Its not the oil I have a problem with because whether we like it or not its the most valuable worldwide commodity and we all need it and consume it by the bucket load.

Reminds me of the time I went to a fancy dress party as a loaf of bread. the **** birds were all over me.