Dodgyknees Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 (edited) Shall we do a list of things he has done? Over-spending like a kid in a sweet shop, before realising he has to pay mum back. Selling his game-boy and playstation, as well as very important revision books to make the money back for mum. Then going 180 on his previous and not spending a penny, other kids might be out having fun or spending money, but he is piling it up under the bed for a dark day. But wait, he needs to have somebody to look after all his goods, so he appoints the foreign nanny who pisses off all his friends before having health problems and walking away with some of that saved £££. But he still needs somebody to manage things, so after deciding he wants the continental style previously, he sticks goes against this by employing the gruff scottish nanny, who is known for losing peoples goods. Another way of putting it would be that he decided to buy a club that he could afford and was good value at the price, and which with a certain amount of investment could perform at a higher level, more than repaying the investment. That's what you call the sweet shop phase. Then things changed, like the global economy and the people sitting round the roulette table and the bet limit at the table, and it all seemed a bit harder. So his plans changed, as yours and mine would. That doesn't seem unreasonable. I don't like the arrangement where rich kids acquire public institutions for fun or profit, whether that's Russian energy companies, or natural resources, or football clubs. I don't like having our football clubs run by thieves, embezzlers, human rights abusers and the rest of the assorted scum who seem to pass the "fit and proper" test. But I also think that some of the criticisms made of Lerner are a little unfair, and unrealistic. I don't like that our club is the plaything of some kid with inherited wealth who doesn't really know what he's doing, but I don't think he's acted dishonestly, dishonourably, or in bad faith. I'd like to see clubs run by supporters' trusts, and the scummy oligarchs and despots run out of the country. In that context, I'm content to see Lerner criticised for his failings, but I do think that some of the criticism I read on here is disproportionate, unfair, and possibly driven by envy of clubs with owners who have bottomless pockets (regardless of how their wealth was derived). So I suppose I'd like to see him gone, but only if replaced by a better arrangement; and being owned by scummy and corrupt torturers, slavers and thieves, like some clubs in our sordid Premiership, is not a better arrangement. In the meantime, I'd prefer to see reasonable and fair criticism, not stuff based on envy and fantasy. The financial meltdown in the world didn't stop him from appointing two god awful managers, who then took something like 10m out of the club in wages and that doesn't include the high turnover of staff and players during these periods. This was at a time when he was cutting back, it is no wonder we are in such a mess, when the person holding the purse strings is loose limbed. A disaster over the past three years and his management has seen us closer to relegation than we had been in a long time. I've had my say, people know my opinion. I will leave it now - but of course, if people want to praise Lerner - in a trolling attempt - after a win, I will come back and defend the other side and the other stance. But I'm getting boring now, repeating the same thing. All my views are in the past few pages. Edited September 28, 2013 by dodgyknees Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P3te Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 I don't think houllier was as bad an appointment as many make out tbh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgyknees Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 (edited) I don't think houllier was as bad an appointment as many make out tbh Money wise it was imho. The cost of his wages, staff, players in etc, It wiped out the Milner fee. Edited September 28, 2013 by dodgyknees Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P3te Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 yeah but you don't know that going into a deal like. it was one of those things that id be inclined to let slide. McLeish on the other hand... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgyknees Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 (edited) yeah but you don't know that going into a deal like. it was one of those things that id be inclined to let slide. McLeish on the other hand... This is true, but it has cost us a lot. It makes zero sense at all to go from one plan - continental, new ideas - to McLeish, all in less than 12 months, perplexing and in my eyes the main reason we have struggled since. Bad decisions. I will add, the appointment of Lambert is a great decision, but lets not forget the cock up of almost having McLaren too, Lerner seems to make a lot of odd choices and decisions. If he had listened to the fans before he went for McLeish, we would be one bad decision less. Edited September 28, 2013 by dodgyknees Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P3te Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 yeh, it was insane tbh. lambert would've been perfect to follow McLeish actually. maybe we can just pretend that's what happened and the 11/12 season was cancelled Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterms Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 The financial meltdown in the world didn't stop him from appointing two god awful managers, who then took something like 10m out of the club in wages and that doesn't include the high turnover of staff and players during these periods. This was at a time when he was cutting back, it is no wonder we are in such a mess, when the person holding the purse strings is loose limbed. Yes, there are fair and unfair criticisms. I don't mean to imply that you only make unfair ones - your post was one I happened to respond to. I agree Lerner's done many things less well than he should have. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgyknees Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 (edited) yeh, it was insane tbh. lambert would've been perfect to follow McLeish actually. maybe we can just pretend that's what happened and the 11/12 season was cancelled I'd rather it was! Saying all of the above, Lerner can still win me over. I just do not trust his decision making, nor his scope. I also worry when we sell Benteke we will see less than we need re-invested, as he looks to claim back even more of his original investment. (I have zero problems with him taking his money back) but if the right plans were in place, right decisions were made, right people appointed and a little less loose from 2010-2011, we'd not be in this position now and he would not be rushing to get the money back - which has become part of the bloody circle he has put us in and the massive problems which have also led to relegation battles. With investment of 20-30m per season, Lambert will win us trophies. Edited September 28, 2013 by dodgyknees Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
P3te Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 sorry, I meant lambert to follow houllier Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Panto_Villan Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 I've just realised why I hate reading this thread: it's the opposite of the Bannan thread. You guys are doing a reverse-Con on me. Just like reading his thread gave me a completely overblown dislike of Barry Bannan due to the endless praise Con would give him, reading this thread makes me like Lerner far more than I would otherwise. For the record, my opinion of Lerner has always been that he's a middling owner who is not an ideal manager for two reasons - one, he doesn't know enough about football, and two, because he's not so insanely rich he just doesn't have to care about money at all. The latter isn't something you can criticise an individual for and he seems to be slowly improving the former. However, the level of criticism that is aimed at him by some posters on this board is so ludicrous that I find myself becoming taking an increasingly strong opposing view when Lerner really doesn't deserve that either. He's fine, but no more than that. I hate the way this endless debate is warping my perception of him because there's no middle ground. People moaning that we've not spent enough money are assuming that Lambert actually wants to spend lots of cash (have you guys ever met a Scotsman before?). Lerner has done plenty of good things for the club. Never been shy with transfer fees - £18m on Bent for example. He's backed every new manager with money, and we've had quite a few of them recently. When we sell a player, we get a damn good price for him: Milner, Barry, Young, Downing. He didn't cash in on Benteke this summer when the sharks were circling. The club has a good reputation for the professionality of its dealings in the transfer window. Aalborg even cited it as a factor why they refused a slightly higher offer for Helenius when we were negotiating with them. He's put money into redeveloping the stadium (the pub) and the training ground at Bodymoor, as a result we now have excellent facilities that a lot of the younger players cite when they're interviewed on why they joined. That cost some £30m. We finished 6th three years in a row under MON. He's hired Lambert and stuck with him when times were bad. Most people's criticism of him seems to boil down to three things: He hired McLeish. I won't defend him here at all, because it was a shocking decision and nearly got us relegated as well as destroying a lot of fans faith in the club. Massive error, no question. He's not investing enough in the club. I don't agree with this, because he's spent a lot of transfers already (as mentioned above) and the club is losing something like £50m a year already. That's about £150,000 a day that's going down the toilet...and people are calling him a tightarse? The fact he's not willing to spend the GDP of a small country to get us into the Champions League is hardly a reason to hate the man. If an anonymous benefactor donated £50m to the club he'd be hailed as a hero but Lerner is investing that every year and people seem to hate him because he's allegedly not spending enough. He owns the club, so ultimately he's responsible for the huge loss the club makes every year. Partially true, maybe, but ultimately this is only the case because he's backed the managers (like MON) who put people on ludicrous salaries. But if he hadn't backed the mangers with enough cash, people would hate him for that too - see point 2). Do I think Randy Lerner is the best club owner ever? No. Would I rather have him than Mike Ashley? Yes. Dave Whelan? Yes. Bill Kenwright? Yes, I would. At the rate of current loss, AVFC would financially destroy Lerner in 12 years. The fact he wants to reduce the wage bill a bit is not a reason to crucify him. Have some perspective, please...the man has spent more money on AVFC than the entire of VillaTalk ever will. I don't see that any of this has changed over the past six weeks, except we can add that now the team is doing OK. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgyknees Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 (edited) sorry, I meant lambert to follow houllier I knew what you meant For the record, I did have a feeling we spent less in the summer (as I said, I worked out 10m with ins/outs) as we might invest in January for around the same amount, to assure we can move forward in the second half of the season with some fresh blood. BUT! I will not get my hopes up, as that will make me negative. And if that does happen, it'll restore a little more faith in Lerner that he will do what is right. If not, 10m net is not enough and is forcing a potentially great manager to shop cheap - when with a little more, he could make us bloody brilliant. I agree with some of Panto's post above, with the exception he backed Lambert (I do not believe 10m this summer is enough) yet Lambert is the right man to back and should be trusted. Secondly, I did forget to praise Lerner for the Benteke re-signing. It was not deliberate on my part. Edited September 28, 2013 by dodgyknees Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 Under Lerner we've broken our clubs premiership records for shitness. We've experienced a consistent level of crap that many fans have never experienced before and we've dropped behind more teams in terms of revenue. So not only have we dropped on the field our drop behind other teams in terms of revenue is going to make progression past midtable even more difficult. I don't see how any criticism is currently unfair or not justified. We've dropped as a club because of him. He deserves all the stick he gets. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgyknees Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 Under Lerner we've broken our clubs premiership records for shitness. We've experienced a consistent level of crap that many fans have never experienced before and we've dropped behind more teams in terms of revenue. So not only have we dropped on the field our drop behind other teams in terms of revenue is going to make progression past midtable even more difficult. I don't see how any criticism is currently unfair or not justified. We've dropped as a club because of him. He deserves all the stick he gets. to the point and I agree. I will never ever stop thinking we are a big club and I will never ever stop thinking we can do better. This is one of the greatest clubs ever and it has been driven into the ground of recent. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 I find it quite amusing. Mcleish sets out a defensive team and it's up roar. Lerner makes decisions that really effect the long term outcome of the club and it's shrugged off. He allowed wages to spiral out of control. His response to this was to hire houllier who did an awful job. He then made arguably the worst managerial appointment in premiership history. During these two managerial disasters the things some blamed MoN soley for continued. He then hired lambert and had him rebuild the squad on a very limited budget. We're the club we are because of him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgyknees Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 I find it quite amusing. Mcleish sets out a defensive team and it's up roar. Lerner makes decisions that really effect the long term outcome of the club and it's shrugged off. He allowed wages to spiral out of control. His response to this was to hire houllier who did an awful job. He then made arguably the worst managerial appointment in premiership history. During these two managerial disasters the things some blamed MoN soley for continued. He then hired lambert and had him rebuild the squad on a very limited budget. We're the club we are because of him. I completely agree, the whole product we have now is down to him having zero control. Like I said I do not have an issue with him taking his money out, I just think the path that has led to it has meant playing with fire at the bottom of the league. And frustratingly, Lambert is the perfect manager to back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
coda Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 I thought people might savour an unlikely win for a few hours. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big_John_10 Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 I thought people might savour an unlikely win for a few hours. Over the moon. Can't wait for MOTD. Doesn't change anything with regards to how badly we've been run and how much I dislike the owner. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgyknees Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 (edited) I thought people might savour an unlikely win for a few hours. Crazy. Great win, doesn't stop what I see as the club being badly run. Plus, look back and see who jumped the thread today. People looking for a reaction. Edited September 28, 2013 by dodgyknees Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
neil3241 Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 My memory is a little hazy but was any of the anti Lerner posters voicing their concerns during the MON spending era? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dodgyknees Posted September 28, 2013 Share Posted September 28, 2013 My memory is a little hazy but was any of the anti Lerner posters voicing their concerns during the MON spending era? I think a few warned it would end badly, but not many did moan. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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