The Randy Lerner thread

[smetrov]

Having a chairman that lives half way around the world - and rarley comes to homes games - in never a good basis - the 'is really bothered' soon springs to the fore.

When said chairman, then starts selling the best players, appoints a 2nd tate manager, and still hardly comes to games ...........well what are you supposed to think ?

[John_Lerwill]

Stan,

"Bright Future tag was a marketing ploy" - You don't have to "explain" that, it's now very apparent.

The world's standards are sinking into s**t. In my dad's day (even in my younger years), if you uttered statements like that you were supposed to mean something by it.

[stanthemanisgod]

But that's the rational behind that line.

How can you prove that he did not mean anything by it or does not hold it to be true now? I'm sure if you were to ask him to his face he's argue that Villa do have a bright future.

It's no promise of delivery set against a measurable timescale, it's just a throw away line used to help sell a few shirts and scarves, to give the fans something to rally behind.

At present there's a feeling of disappointment around the club but who's to say we wont finish the seaon strongly and all of sudden we all belive in that bright future again.

Would you have bought a scarf that said Proud History: Below Average Future?

Also the world is not the same as it was 50 years ago, but even then people were economic with the truth if it meant turning a profit, it just wasn't as widespread, and it certainly hadn't crept into football.

[b6bloke]

John, not wishing to down play the work you have done on this at all. I do think though that our core support is bigger than you suggest. I am sure if we got relegated to the Chamipnship that our corwds would not drop below 25k

Fuse, I'm setting my stall based on some kind of fact.

When Villa went down in 1987, the figures did improve but simply because a good manager - Graham Taylor - was brought in. But the Saturday figures even then hovered between 19k and 25k at that point. The weekday attendances were down as far as 11k!!

What would happen now is what I guess you're really saying. Well, it depends. If there's not a manager that's appointed that gives rise to hope then I'd say your 25k would be very optimistic.

It rather depends on who is manager and if money is being made available.

The question was what is the core support. I'd say that 15k to 17k is still the figure I'd go for as the number of fans that would support their club through thick and thin. If there's a sign of some success, then 25k is possible.

That is my case, especially in the current economic climate, which I can't see improving in the next 2 or 3 years.

Just posted this in the Match forum but relevent to this thread.

Guy at work has just had a call off Villa and they are selling off tickets in the Holte Tomorrow, 4 tickets for £40! They must have had poor ticket sales.

I have seen adverts telling season ticket holders to sell their ticket if they dont come which kind of tells the story that even season ticket holders are not turning up as I know I am not sure if I am going toomorrow.

Problem is that I had a couple of spare tickets to the Albion game going for free and neither me or my mates could find any takers!

[Fuse]

John, not wishing to down play the work you have done on this at all. I do think though that our core support is bigger than you suggest. I am sure if we got relegated to the Chamipnship that our corwds would not drop below 25k

Fuse, I'm setting my stall based on some kind of fact.

When Villa went down in 1987, the figures did improve but simply because a good manager - Graham Taylor - was brought in. But the Saturday figures even then hovered between 19k and 25k at that point. The weekday attendances were down as far as 11k!!

What would happen now is what I guess you're really saying. Well, it depends. If there's not a manager that's appointed that gives rise to hope then I'd say your 25k would be very optimistic.

It rather depends on who is manager and if money is being made available.

The question was what is the core support. I'd say that 15k to 17k is still the figure I'd go for as the number of fans that would support their club through thick and thin. If there's a sign of some success, then 25k is possible.

That is my case, especially in the current economic climate, which I can't see improving in the next 2 or 3 years.

Just posted this in the Match forum but relevent to this thread.

Guy at work has just had a call off Villa and they are selling off tickets in the Holte Tomorrow, 4 tickets for £40! They must have had poor ticket sales.

I have seen adverts telling season ticket holders to sell their ticket if they dont come which kind of tells the story that even season ticket holders are not turning up as I know I am not sure if I am going toomorrow.

Problem is that I had a couple of spare tickets to the Albion game going for free and neither me or my mates could find any takers!

I am all for the club doing deals on tickets but are they not in danger here of really annoying season ticket holders who have paid full whack and yet are seeing almost every game now a £10 a seat deal?

Its a shame the club didn't think about doing a season ticket priced at £10 per game.

[Richard]

The approach to the communications really interests me.

For a few years under Eliis most of us said that he never communicated iwth the fans, that when he did it was condescending we never knew what our direction was or why, and we longed for the time when a decent owner would communicate properly and professionally with the fanbase.

Then we had lerner and in the initial stages he communicated well and everyone said how wonderful it was and refreshing that our owners were communicating with the fans and taking on board the fan in the decisions they made, we even had a board member on message boards interacting with fans and pointing them to Nicky Keye and wasn't that wonderful too. It was hailed as the way to go.

Now the communications are the same or worse actually than the Ellis years and yet people say that is OK and what should we expect anyway from an owner.

I just wish people would be consistent and criticise where it is due rather than support , seemingly, blindly

[John_Lerwill]

The approach to the communications really interests me.

For a few years under Eliis most of us said that he never communicated iwth the fans, that when he did it was condescending we never knew what our direction was or why, and we longed for the time when a decent owner would communicate properly and professionally with the fanbase.

Then we had lerner and in the initial stages he communicated well and everyone said how wonderful it was and refreshing that our owners were communicating with the fans and taking on board the fan in the decisions they made, we even had a board member on message boards interacting with fans and pointing them to Nicky Keye and wasn't that wonderful too. It was hailed as the way to go.

Now the communications are the same or worse actually than the Ellis years and yet people say that is OK and what should we expect anyway from an owner.

I just wish people would be consistent and criticise where it is due rather than support , seemingly, blindly

Richard, I praise you! :-) That's exactly the kind of reply I was going to write in response to Stan-whatever.

Spot on!!

[Richard]

Well John praise indeed!

The thing is, as you know full well from our exchanges at the time, I criticised Ellis long and loud on many many occasions for his poor stewardship of this club. For lack of investment, for poor communications, for treating the fans as mushrooms, for holding back the progress of the club, for aiming for mediocrity and not putting in place plans for us to compete at the top of the league etc etc etc

So why would I not now criticise Lerner for the same?Was it just Ellis that was open to this and Lerner is not merely because he is not Ellis?

[John_Lerwill]

But that's the rational behind that line.

How can you prove that he did not mean anything by it or does not hold it to be true now? I'm sure if you were to ask him to his face he's argue that Villa do have a bright future.

It's no promise of delivery set against a measurable timescale, it's just a throw away line used to help sell a few shirts and scarves, to give the fans something to rally behind.

At present there's a feeling of disappointment around the club but who's to say we wont finish the seaon strongly and all of sudden we all belive in that bright future again.

Would you have bought a scarf that said Proud History: Below Average Future?

Also the world is not the same as it was 50 years ago, but even then people were economic with the truth if it meant turning a profit, it just wasn't as widespread, and it certainly hadn't crept into football.

Please see Richard's post above. He says it all for me.

As to what the world is now compared to 50 years ago ... Well if you're happy with the way the world is going then you must be living in some mansion guarded by iron railings and ferocious dogs.

Economically, the world 50 years ago was the poorer, but in terms of values it was hugely better. I prefer the latter - the 1950s was almost an ideal decade, before TV took over. Be prepared for a big shift in world values in the next 2 or 3 years - people are beginning to see the sham that we're living in and the quick-profit merchants are in for a big shock.

Just wait and see.

[John_Lerwill]

Well John praise indeed!

The thing is, as you know full well from our exchanges at the time, I criticised Ellis long and loud on many many occasions for his poor stewardship of this club. For lack of investment, for poor communications, for treating the fans as mushrooms, for holding back the progress of the club, for aiming for mediocrity and not putting in place plans for us to compete at the top of the league etc etc etc

So why would I not now criticise Lerner for the same?Was it just Ellis that was open to this and Lerner is not merely because he is not Ellis?

If nothing else, Richard, you're consistent!! We were indeed looking for something better in the early 2000s, and for it all to seemingly slide back to a similar state is beyond comprehension. Lerner's not got the excuse of being an octogenarian and ill (as Ellis was by 2005).

[makouns_grin]

The approach to the communications really interests me.

For a few years under Eliis most of us said that he never communicated iwth the fans, that when he did it was condescending we never knew what our direction was or why, and we longed for the time when a decent owner would communicate properly and professionally with the fanbase.

Then we had lerner and in the initial stages he communicated well and everyone said how wonderful it was and refreshing that our owners were communicating with the fans and taking on board the fan in the decisions they made, we even had a board member on message boards interacting with fans and pointing them to Nicky Keye and wasn't that wonderful too. It was hailed as the way to go.

Now the communications are the same or worse actually than the Ellis years and yet people say that is OK and what should we expect anyway from an owner.

I just wish people would be consistent and criticise where it is due rather than support , seemingly, blindly

Obesssssssssed.

Who cares about Doug?

What relevance does he have today?

Nothing.

[John_Lerwill]

I think you miss Richard's point.

[barry'sboots]

Do you complain to Tesco that they tell you every little helps when you find a product slightly more expensive in their shop than a competitors? I would guess not because you don't take their advertising as a promise.

I am really fed up of people comparing football to other product offerings like Tescos. If you are comfortable with this comparison, I cannot believe that are a real football fan?

[Richard]

I think you miss Richard's point.

Spectacularly .

[Fuse]

Well John praise indeed!

The thing is, as you know full well from our exchanges at the time, I criticised Ellis long and loud on many many occasions for his poor stewardship of this club. For lack of investment, for poor communications, for treating the fans as mushrooms, for holding back the progress of the club, for aiming for mediocrity and not putting in place plans for us to compete at the top of the league etc etc etc

So why would I not now criticise Lerner for the same?Was it just Ellis that was open to this and Lerner is not merely because he is not Ellis?

I agree. Randy is quickly undoing all fo the good things he did to begin with and whetehr right or not is givign the perception of soemone who ahs lost interest and wants out.

At the moment i would settle for him taking the time to out minds at ease as to his continued commitment to the club. The longer we don;t see that then the more I will assume he is looking to sell.

I'd hope he is staying and is cmmitted for the long term. I would buy into us consolidating the wage bill and investing again from there albeit with more control than previous. With the right amount of luck and good management then I think we could still ahve relative success.

However if this isn't what he is planning then I'd prefer to know he is on the look out for a buyer.

[LancsVillan]

The approach to the communications really interests me.

For a few years under Eliis most of us said that he never communicated iwth the fans, that when he did it was condescending we never knew what our direction was or why, and we longed for the time when a decent owner would communicate properly and professionally with the fanbase.

Then we had lerner and in the initial stages he communicated well and everyone said how wonderful it was and refreshing that our owners were communicating with the fans and taking on board the fan in the decisions they made, we even had a board member on message boards interacting with fans and pointing them to Nicky Keye and wasn't that wonderful too. It was hailed as the way to go.

Now the communications are the same or worse actually than the Ellis years and yet people say that is OK and what should we expect anyway from an owner.

I just wish people would be consistent and criticise where it is due rather than support , seemingly, blindly

In response to me I guess and you missed the point by a mile, then it doesn't fit the agenda / crusade you have been on for a while.

FTR I don't remember us fans ever demanding statements from the club about plans and strategies. We said it would be nice to know more and we never got it. Then we got some when Randy arrived, we had no right to it and whilst it was nice we have no foggy to demand statements now. It's not Randy and/or the board are elected representatives who have to spout any old rubbish just to appease is it?

As for xnsistency whatever happened to consistently supporting 'organic growth' and use of the academy?

[John_Lerwill]

Why shouldn't the fans have a right to state their level of hope and expectancy, Lancs?

I'm with the Co-op Bank, where they come to you every year and ask you whether you want the Bank to continue with their modus operandi of moral banking. And they ask you in detail too.

The idea should get round to other custodians of businesses. The highly-respected Ernst Schumacher (of "Small is Beautiful" fame) sought the same mode of operation for businesses.

[LancsVillan]

We can ask John but we have no right to a response. Which clubs announce such plans?

[John_Lerwill]

We can ask John but we have no right to a response. Which clubs announce such plans?

You're right, Lancs, that other clubs don't, but that way is all wrong i.m.o.

In business there have been some companies (the Co-op isn't the only one) where they take their customers very seriously.

The football world is magnetically attracted by loot, I'm afraid, They can't see the wood for the trees.

It all needs to change, and why shouldn't Villa lead the way? It always used to in pretty well everything else!

[LancsVillan]

I agree in the main part John. If I was lucky enough to be in charge I would do things differently, however, I am not going to lambast the club, one that don't forget we all love and want success for, for looking to work within our finances even if.they have me daily statements on how we are doing.

As I said and others agreed, the club are in a no win position.