Manager Paul Lambert

[VillaCas]

 

 

 I think we could all get behind him more if he told us what our aim was

 

 

That's precisely the issue - if he told us the real aim would fans get behind him? 

 

 

You could be right - if the plan is to cut his losses and to sell then obviously not

 

To be clear, I'm not here to support RL

[VillaCas]

 

I've been thinking a little more on your position....even if Lambert had been allowed to retain as many players as he had wanted

 

who would you have wanted to retain / offer new contracts out of : Heskey, Cuellar, Collins, Holman and Makoun

 

and who would you have used more out of  : Warnock, Hutton, Ireland, Stevens, Given and Bent

 

and who out of KEA, Lowton, Vlaar, Bowery, Bennett, Westwood, Benetek (sic), Guzan, Sylla, Tonev, Okore, Bacuna, Helenius, Luna, Steer and Kozak would you have not signed

 

Not a trick question but I'm really curious to get a sense of how you feel this strength in depth that you feel LAmbert has missed out on could have been achieved

 

 

Morpheus, I've had a go at this for you based on some of your previous comments and had a look in the crystal ball for you

 

I've decided that you want to retain  Cuellar and Collins and let Holman, Makoun and Heskey go. Because of the lack of a fee for Collins and the need to give Cuellar a new contract we've not signed KEA, Bowery, Bennett and Lowton

 

To give a little more experience we've also signed Charlie Adam and Dimitar Berbatov (knew you'd be pleased),To pay for their fees and wages we've not signed Benteke, Tonev, Sylla. Westwood and Kozak

 

We've kept : Warnock, Hutton, Ireland, and Bent and still signed Vlaar and Steer. but because we have had to pay the full wages of these players we've not signed Okore, Bacuna Luna or Helenious

 

Our first team is now : Guzan, Cuellar, Collins, Vlaar, Warnock, Delph, Ireland, Adam, Agbonlahor, Berbatov and Bent  and our subs are Steer, Dunne, Hutton, Baker, Clark, Herd, and Weimann. We've got no other squad and if we get injuries we use untried 18 year olds

 

In 2012-13 although at times playing attractive, possession football - injuries, loss of form and lack of squad depth meant this squad was relegated.

 

This season, Berbatov is off form and agitatiing for a move. Ireland, Warnock, Hutton and Bent, for some reason are playing very poorly indeed. Vlaar and Collins are injured but their replacements Clark and Baker don't seem up to the task as they have had limited first team experience. Fans hope the the team can turn it around at this weekends crunch bottom of the table clash with Yeovil

 

.......don't laugh, it could have happened

[Big_John_10]

You have a right to challenge RL for originally running the club in a risky manner, I respect that. But you cannot accused the Lerner of giving up or having no interest in the club. I do not buy into that.

You can't accuse Lerner of giving up? Why not?

We are still dealing with the consequences of that unsustainable era,

That's not true, the players we are now trying to shift on big money are those signed after Mon left when supposedly Lerner had learned his lesson. Actually though it was another 2 years of the same before he brought Lambert in.

However, I still believe Lambert has been provided with decent financial backing. Managers in the Premiership rarely get the autonomy to build an entirely new squad in their own right. What other Premiership club would allow a massive revamp such as this?

Our revamp has been to drop the wage bill while surviving. Why do you say this like clubs wouldn't allow it? The point of it was to bring the wage bill down. Of course Lerner is going to do that. Do you really think the likes of sylla, Westwood, lowton, Bennet and Bowery are on competitive premiership wages?

Commercially the club has greatly improved since the Lerner takeover

How so? Have we improved in comparison to other clubs? Edited December 13, 2013 by Big_John_10

[Isa]

No you don't have to be 'exceptional' but the examples chosen were exceptional (Januzaj, Shaw). I, together with PL don't think that any of the current crop of youngsters is quite ready but who exactly do you think should be getting game time at the moment?

Sterling, Wisdom and Davies were also given as examples. None of those are 'exceptional'. As for the current bunch, Donacien, Johnson, Carruthers, Grealish, Graham and perhaps Robinson are possibly good enough to be involved with the first team. Note I say 'possibly' because you never really know unless they are actually given a chance.

 

You're at it again.....Januzaj and Shaw were not my examples, they were the examples quoted. I didn't say they needed to be in that class "to be involved" but in my opinion they would need to be that class to be considered for a regular first team place.

It is a bit strange that you keep saying things that you then deem irrelevant to your original post. Why say we have no players of the 'Januzaj and Shaw class' if you now say the players don't need to be of that class anyway to be involved. I never said anything about promoting them and automatically making them regulars. I said they can be given a chance. If they impress, they can keep their place. There is supposed to be an element of meritocracy here isn't there?

 

Also the fact that you beleive we have a 'lack of quality', works against the idea of blooding youngsters. If you have a high quality squad it is much easier to throw the odd youngster in

Not really. If we had a very good squad it would be much harder for them to breakthrough and there would be much less need for it in fact.

 

That is just complete conjecture really. Do you actually know any academy directors - YES, a few, let alone '100%' of them? No, I exaggerated To say with certainty that giving one of the academy players a chance 'won't' help the team is just presumption, nothing more. Again, that's not what I said - I said that if the players isn't ready for his first team chance it is very likely to set back his development

Err..no, you didn't say that. You categorically stated that playing an 'untried' player 'won't' help the team. 'Untried' isn't the same as 'not being ready'.

This is just nonsense - so a player who doesnt impress with the U21s should be given a chance in the first team?

I said they don't always have to 'greatly stand out' not 'they should be given a chance if they are failing to impress'. You are the one saying none of them are currently good enough, so I assume that they aren't standing out enough in your eyes for you to think this?

No the basic gist of that post is that Lambert and his team are monitoring the academy players meticulously and will play them when they feel it is appropriate

Once again, I don't have blind faith in Lambert and his judgements on everything and as I said, this argument can be used to defend the selection policy of any manager in the world.

[Isa]

I never understand why, everyone predicts a loss then kicks off anyway. Makes no sense.

It does make sense if you predict we will lose as a result of an incompetent performance by the team and/or bad tactics/selection on the manager's part.For example, there were many matches that I knew we would lose under TSM due to his awful selection and team instruction which was often akin to flying the white flag before the game had even kicked off. This didn't stop me criticising him after we did inevitably lose.

That still doesn’t make sense though, you predicted a loss for the reasons then act surprised when it happens and criticise? Why when you knew before anyway, its especially relevant when it comes to Villa and not just under Lambert.

I don't 'act surprised' though so that is a moot point.

[Morpheus]

 

 

I've been thinking a little more on your position....even if Lambert had been allowed to retain as many players as he had wanted

 

who would you have wanted to retain / offer new contracts out of : Heskey, Cuellar, Collins, Holman and Makoun

 

and who would you have used more out of  : Warnock, Hutton, Ireland, Stevens, Given and Bent

 

and who out of KEA, Lowton, Vlaar, Bowery, Bennett, Westwood, Benetek (sic), Guzan, Sylla, Tonev, Okore, Bacuna, Helenius, Luna, Steer and Kozak would you have not signed

 

Not a trick question but I'm really curious to get a sense of how you feel this strength in depth that you feel LAmbert has missed out on could have been achieved

 

 

Morpheus, I've had a go at this for you based on some of your previous comments and had a look in the crystal ball for you

 

I've decided that you want to retain  Cuellar and Collins and let Holman, Makoun and Heskey go. Because of the lack of a fee for Collins and the need to give Cuellar a new contract we've not signed KEA, Bowery, Bennett and Lowton

 

To give a little more experience we've also signed Charlie Adam and Dimitar Berbatov (knew you'd be pleased),To pay for their fees and wages we've not signed Benteke, Tonev, Sylla. Westwood and Kozak

 

We've kept : Warnock, Hutton, Ireland, and Bent and still signed Vlaar and Steer. but because we have had to pay the full wages of these players we've not signed Okore, Bacuna Luna or Helenious

 

Our first team is now : Guzan, Cuellar, Collins, Vlaar, Warnock, Delph, Ireland, Adam, Agbonlahor, Berbatov and Bent  and our subs are Steer, Dunne, Hutton, Baker, Clark, Herd, and Weimann. We've got no other squad and if we get injuries we use untried 18 year olds

 

In 2012-13 although at times playing attractive, possession football - injuries, loss of form and lack of squad depth meant this squad was relegated.

 

This season, Berbatov is off form and agitatiing for a move. Ireland, Warnock, Hutton and Bent, for some reason are playing very poorly indeed. Vlaar and Collins are injured but their replacements Clark and Baker don't seem up to the task as they have had limited first team experience. Fans hope the the team can turn it around at this weekends crunch bottom of the table clash with Yeovil

 

.......don't laugh, it could have happened

 

Thats an interesting summation VillaCas but since I don't know what was actually available to Lambert and what his exact remit was then there is no basis for me to construct a new squad or indeed who to keep.

[SikhInTrinity]

Theres no right or wrong way of blooding youngsters, I can see the benefits but can also see the impact it could have on our youngsters. It's very hard with younger players as they may have the ability but mentally its a massive gap, if its all going well, then great throw in the kids, notice how when Soton were struggling, Shaw wasn't featuring despite calls from their fans to throw him in. Januzaj is a special talent, but he's not playing in the position he come in through with the youth. Then lets take a look at Morrison/Barkley who were both loaned last year for full seasons. I just don't think it's a wise idea of throwing in kids as options, if we threw in Donacien and we lost 4-0 say, mentally that would be hard to come back from. I just do not think it's as easy as saying just throw them in, also I think Sid Cowans has an input into this discussion too.

[VillaCas]

As for the current bunch, Donacien, Johnson, Carruthers, Grealish, Graham and perhaps Robinson are possibly good enough to be involved with the first team. Note I say 'possibly' because you never really know unless they are actually given a chance.

 

I wonder how many academy and U-21 games you've attended this season? All the players you mention are good prospects as I highlighted earlier and some are nearer than others and all will get a chance I'm sure

 

What you've done though is move the argument away from the original point that I disagreed with which is that we should throw a few youngsters in as "they can't be any worse than Westwood or Weimann"

 

They are not in the same league as Weimann and Westwood at the moment

[VillaCas]

 

 

Morpheus, I've had a go at this for you based on some of your previous comments and had a look in the crystal ball for you

 

I've decided that you want to retain  Cuellar and Collins and let Holman, Makoun and Heskey go. Because of the lack of a fee for Collins and the need to give Cuellar a new contract we've not signed KEA, Bowery, Bennett and Lowton

 

To give a little more experience we've also signed Charlie Adam and Dimitar Berbatov (knew you'd be pleased),To pay for their fees and wages we've not signed Benteke, Tonev, Sylla. Westwood and Kozak

 

We've kept : Warnock, Hutton, Ireland, and Bent and still signed Vlaar and Steer. but because we have had to pay the full wages of these players we've not signed Okore, Bacuna Luna or Helenious

 

Our first team is now : Guzan, Cuellar, Collins, Vlaar, Warnock, Delph, Ireland, Adam, Agbonlahor, Berbatov and Bent  and our subs are Steer, Dunne, Hutton, Baker, Clark, Herd, and Weimann. We've got no other squad and if we get injuries we use untried 18 year olds

 

In 2012-13 although at times playing attractive, possession football - injuries, loss of form and lack of squad depth meant this squad was relegated.

 

This season, Berbatov is off form and agitatiing for a move. Ireland, Warnock, Hutton and Bent, for some reason are playing very poorly indeed. Vlaar and Collins are injured but their replacements Clark and Baker don't seem up to the task as they have had limited first team experience. Fans hope the the team can turn it around at this weekends crunch bottom of the table clash with Yeovil

 

.......don't laugh, it could have happened

 

Thats an interesting summation VillaCas but since I don't know what was actually available to Lambert and what his exact remit was then there is no basis for me to construct a new squad or indeed who to keep.

 

 

....yes I thought you'd probably duck this one

 

Easy making wild general statements but much trickier to pin it down to specifics

[mikeyp102]

Theres no right or wrong way of blooding youngsters, I can see the benefits but can also see the impact it could have on our youngsters. It's very hard with younger players as they may have the ability but mentally its a massive gap, if its all going well, then great throw in the kids, notice how when Soton were struggling, Shaw wasn't featuring despite calls from their fans to throw him in. Januzaj is a special talent, but he's not playing in the position he come in through with the youth. Then lets take a look at Morrison/Barkley who were both loaned last year for full seasons. I just don't think it's a wise idea of throwing in kids as options, if we threw in Donacien and we lost 4-0 say, mentally that would be hard to come back from. I just do not think it's as easy as saying just throw them in, also I think Sid Cowans has an input into this discussion too.

I can agree with a lot of this, I suppose it depends on the position of the player and situation in a match. For example CB is very hard to blood young players on because a mistake can lead to conceding a goal which could lower confidence. However, a winger/forward is less likely to have an impact on a defeat because in theory if they lost the ball in the attacking third, there should be enough cover in place. The same as game situation, if it is tight then it is a risk bringing on the youngster as it could affect the result. But if the result is seemingly already decided (winning/losing by a comfortable margin, with a short time frame left) then in my eyes putting the young player on for a few minutes is a better option than a tried and tested player.

[Morpheus]

 

 

 

Morpheus, I've had a go at this for you based on some of your previous comments and had a look in the crystal ball for you

 

I've decided that you want to retain  Cuellar and Collins and let Holman, Makoun and Heskey go. Because of the lack of a fee for Collins and the need to give Cuellar a new contract we've not signed KEA, Bowery, Bennett and Lowton

 

To give a little more experience we've also signed Charlie Adam and Dimitar Berbatov (knew you'd be pleased),To pay for their fees and wages we've not signed Benteke, Tonev, Sylla. Westwood and Kozak

 

We've kept : Warnock, Hutton, Ireland, and Bent and still signed Vlaar and Steer. but because we have had to pay the full wages of these players we've not signed Okore, Bacuna Luna or Helenious

 

Our first team is now : Guzan, Cuellar, Collins, Vlaar, Warnock, Delph, Ireland, Adam, Agbonlahor, Berbatov and Bent  and our subs are Steer, Dunne, Hutton, Baker, Clark, Herd, and Weimann. We've got no other squad and if we get injuries we use untried 18 year olds

 

In 2012-13 although at times playing attractive, possession football - injuries, loss of form and lack of squad depth meant this squad was relegated.

 

This season, Berbatov is off form and agitatiing for a move. Ireland, Warnock, Hutton and Bent, for some reason are playing very poorly indeed. Vlaar and Collins are injured but their replacements Clark and Baker don't seem up to the task as they have had limited first team experience. Fans hope the the team can turn it around at this weekends crunch bottom of the table clash with Yeovil

 

.......don't laugh, it could have happened

 

Thats an interesting summation VillaCas but since I don't know what was actually available to Lambert and what his exact remit was then there is no basis for me to construct a new squad or indeed who to keep.

 

 

....yes I thought you'd probably duck this one

 

Easy making wild general statements but much trickier to pin it down to specifics

 

How can you be specific when you don't have the relative information and therefore your predictions in that list are just as wild as you allege mine to be.

 

Furthermore if I did choose from your list who I wouldn't have signed then I would be accused of using the benefit of hindsight so no ducking the question at all and no reason to be smug either.

[Isa]

As for the current bunch, Donacien, Johnson, Carruthers, Grealish, Graham and perhaps Robinson are possibly good enough to be involved with the first team. Note I say 'possibly' because you never really know unless they are actually given a chance.

 

I wonder how many academy and U-21 games you've attended this season? All the players you mention are good prospects as I highlighted earlier and some are nearer than others and all will get a chance I'm sure

 

What you've done though is move the argument away from the original point that I disagreed with which is that we should throw a few youngsters in as "they can't be any worse than Westwood or Weimann"

 

They are not in the same league as Weimann and Westwood at the moment

I follow the U21s on AVTV actually. Also, did I move the argument away from the original point? How exactly did I do that when I responded to all the points you made?

Yes I stand by the opinion that some of the academy players should be given an opportunity if the some of the current first team players are consistantly underperforming.

Also, what 'league' exactly has Weimann been in this season? If you think continuously playing people who have been underperforming every week for almost half a season is the correct selection policy by the manager then good for you. It is not an opinion I share.

[SikhInTrinity]

 

Theres no right or wrong way of blooding youngsters, I can see the benefits but can also see the impact it could have on our youngsters. It's very hard with younger players as they may have the ability but mentally its a massive gap, if its all going well, then great throw in the kids, notice how when Soton were struggling, Shaw wasn't featuring despite calls from their fans to throw him in. Januzaj is a special talent, but he's not playing in the position he come in through with the youth. Then lets take a look at Morrison/Barkley who were both loaned last year for full seasons. I just don't think it's a wise idea of throwing in kids as options, if we threw in Donacien and we lost 4-0 say, mentally that would be hard to come back from. I just do not think it's as easy as saying just throw them in, also I think Sid Cowans has an input into this discussion too.

I can agree with a lot of this, I suppose it depends on the position of the player and situation in a match. For example CB is very hard to blood young players on because a mistake can lead to conceding a goal which could lower confidence. However, a winger/forward is less likely to have an impact on a defeat because in theory if they lost the ball in the attacking third, there should be enough cover in place. The same as game situation, if it is tight then it is a risk bringing on the youngster as it could affect the result. But if the result is seemingly already decided (winning/losing by a comfortable margin, with a short time frame left) then in my eyes putting the young player on for a few minutes is a better option than a tried and tested player.

 

 

Think we are agreed, but we haven't been in a position for a comfortable win like that this season. I think we have the right manager to bring them through and he'll know more about the situations with players than all of us.

[VillaCas]

 

 

 

How can you be specific when you don't have the relative information and therefore your predictions in that list are just as wild as you allege mine to be.

 

Furthermore if I did choose from your list who I wouldn't have signed then I would be accused of using the benefit of hindsight so no ducking the question at all and no reason to be smug either.

 

 

I'm happy for you to use as much hindsight as you like! It's not a difficult question to say who you would have kept or played from the bomb-squad, nor who you wouldn't have signed

 

I don't beleive it was ever an option, but if we had kept or played the majority of them, then there would have been little or no money to sign new players. Again, in my opinion, if we had kept the likes of Collins and Cuellar and played the likes of Hutton and Warnock, at the expense of signing the majority of the 16 young players then I think we would have been in relegated last season and be in very very serious trouble 2 or 3 years down the line

 

It's so easy to say "we should have signed better quality and more experienced players" without trying to specify how that might be achieved in practice

 

P.S. on the plus side love the new avatar

 

Edited December 13, 2013 by VillaCas

[VillaCas]

 

Yes I stand by the opinion that some of the academy players should be given an opportunity if the some of the current first team players are consistantly underperforming.

 

We've got some very good youngsters but in the main they are 6-12 months away from being ready for more than the odd 10 min sub apperance for the first team.

 

Also, what 'league' exactly has Weimann been in this season? If you think continuously playing people who have been underperforming every week for almost half a season is the correct selection policy by the manager then good for you. It is not an opinion I share.

 

Again your regular "straw man" argument - I don't think Weimann is playing well at all and don't recall ever saying that he was, but rather than throw in an unready and untried 18yo, I would prefer the manager to use someone else from the current first team squad

 

Weimann is playing very poorly at the moment but he is in a different league mentally, physically and ability-wise than the academy players (as they stand today)

Edited December 13, 2013 by VillaCas

[GENTLEMAN]

You can't accuse Lerner of giving up? Why not?

 

You can accuse him of not investing more money into the squad or trimming the wage bill down but that does not equate to "giving up".  My definition of "giving up" would be allowing the club to collapse in on itself like the stewards at Leeds and Portsmouth ultimately did with their respective clubs. Unlike the people running those two clubs (at that time), Lerner is actively trying to rectify mistakes he has made and offer a creditable solution to move the club forward. If he had truly given up you would be a lot more bitter than you are now, trust me.

 

That's not true, the players we are now trying to shift on big money are those signed after Mon left when supposedly Lerner had learned his lesson. Actually though it was another 2 years of the same before he brought Lambert in.

 

It is not wrong though. We have not had a manager for longer than one season since Martin O'Neill (the unsustainable era). Did you miss the massive sales of Stuart Downing, James Milner, Ashley Young? And there are other high earners that left during that period too. We were operating under a sell to buy policy, we just had more assets to sale at the particular time. RL has been cutting the wage bill since MON left I am afraid.

 

The constant changing of managers brought more upheaval and instability. The majority of signings GH and AM made were intended to be key players and therefore commanded a bigger fee and wage. Lambert has chosen to spread his transfer budget on a bigger and younger group of players for the long term.

 

Our revamp has been to drop the wage bill while surviving. Why do you say this like clubs wouldn't allow it? The point of it was to bring the wage bill down. Of course Lerner is going to do that. Do you really think the likes of sylla, Westwood, lowton, Bennet and Bowery are on competitive premiership wages?

 

 

A cynical person would believe it was entirely down to cutting the wage bill, I strongly disagree (see above for the reason). Lambert would not have taken on the challenge if he had that mentality. 

 

There is not another club, I can think of, that would allow a manager to overhaul the squad to this extent. It is ambitious and exciting but also sustainable. Put it this way, it did not discourage Lambert from taking the job, if anything it probably appealed to him more. It takes a lot of courage to do what Lambert has done.

 

I have no knowledge of individual players' wages. But I would choose the players you have mentioned over Stephen Warnock and Richard Dunne. 

 

How so? Have we improved in comparison to other clubs? 

 

 

How so? I think you will find commercial income has increased under Lerner significantly. Since 2006 we have had seen record sponsorship deals and partnership with global brands (Nike/Turkish Airlines/EA Sports for example); content from AVTV has recently been added to American TV networks to enhance Villa's profile globally; the club recorded impressive shirt sales during the summer; and there has been various community programs/incentives and successful social media campaigns to raise the club's profile locally and globally. The club is marketed a lot more effectively than it ever has been and the club deserve some credit for that. 

 

I am comparing it with Ellis's tenure, it has improved without a shadow of doubt since Lerner took over. If you wish to research the commercial side further to compare with other clubs, feel free. 

[Big_John_10]

It is ambitious

In what why is cutting the wage bill massively while fighting relegation ambitious? Amazing attitude towards this owner. It really is.

I think you will find commercial income has increased under Lerner significantly

Is this not because money in general has increased as times gone on? Because compared to other teams we've certainly not improved much if any in terms of this. So everything you've mentioned is nothing to really shout about.

[GENTLEMAN]

 

It is ambitious

In what why is cutting the wage bill massively while fighting relegation ambitious? Amazing attitude towards this owner. It really is.

I think you will find commercial income has increased under Lerner significantly

Is this not because money in general has increased as times gone on? Because compared to other teams we've certainly not improved much if any in terms of this. So everything you've mentioned is nothing to really shout about.

 

We should all be cynical like you I suppose?

[Big_John_10]

It is ambitious

In what why is cutting the wage bill massively while fighting relegation ambitious? Amazing attitude towards this owner. It really is.

I think you will find commercial income has increased under Lerner significantly

Is this not because money in general has increased as times gone on? Because compared to other teams we've certainly not improved much if any in terms of this. So everything you've mentioned is nothing to really shout about.

We should all be cynical like you I suppose?

You don't have to be cynical just look at the last 3 years and the facts. Compared to other teams we are not massively improved in commercial revenue.

If the focus was ambition over cost cutting then Lambert would have been able to bring in more of his top targets.

[LondonLax]

Please take it to the Lerner thread... 

 

Again...