Dr_Pangloss Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 I just don't really understand your line of argument. You're saying that the greatest players ever all made their mark at the World Cup, which in turn suggests Messi, as yet, cannot be rated as one of the greatest of all time. However, that is flawed, as most would agree that Di Stéfano is one of the greats. You disagree with this, saying he wouldn't be on your 'list', yet Michael Laudrup would - a player who didn't really perform at a World Cup to the level of the players you mentioned above (Pelé, Maradona, etc.) No I said that Laudrup was a "personal favourite of mine" and not one of the greatest ever (although to be fair to him did pretty well at Mexico 86 and France 98). I also said that there's a tendency for the best players ever to show their talents on the biggest stage of all i.e. the world cup and that it is an "important criteria", not the only criteria. I was definitely hasty in saying Best is one of the only real contenders for greatest ever to never have played in a world cup, I'd retract that but my general point still holds and I've not at all contradicted it. Excellent performance in a world cup is most definitely an important criterion for judging the best ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFCforever1991 Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 Excellent performance in a world cup is most definitely an important criterion for judging the best ever. In your opinion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 Oh I'm sorry I guess I should preface everything I type on here with 'in my opinion', even though it's pretty obvious that we're all talking opinions here . Out of interest I wouldn't mind seeing a list of legit. all time greats who haven't performed brilliantly in a world cup, that might actually take the debate somewhere interesting for once. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 The point about Di Stefano is that he never even appeared in a World Cup. I didnt the guy play, he was in his mid fifties by the time I was even born, but when he is widely regarded as Real Madrid's greatest ever player (and he is almost certainly the reason why they are where they are now) then surely you have to concede that alon side George Best he has to be on that very short list of players who never even appeared in a World Cup who can be considered the greatest of all time? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 Ok so how big is the list? Let's say the list contains the two best players from each decade since the 1930s, then no Di Stefano is not on my list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 So you dont think Real Madrid's greatest ever player is that good? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 This is getting tedious, I already said why he's not on my list, not because I don't think he was a great player but because I think there were better players around when he was in his pomp. It's as simple as that. I guess it depends on how big the list is and what the parameters are, as I already said, if it is for instance the two best from each decade since the 1930s he wouldn't be on there. You aren't defining any terms here you're just playing silly buggers to be honest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troglodyte Posted November 3, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted November 3, 2012 Even if the list isn't very long, surely the existence of such players disproves the point that performing at a World Cup isn't a necessary criterion for judging the greatness of a player. Also, I don't agree that a player can't be seen as an all time great if he plays within a decade of a player who may be considered better. To suggest that this means Di Stéfano can't be considered for an all-time great list (despite the fact that I personally doubt there were many better than him in the same generation) just seems daft. Similarly, you state that Best is the exception to the rule of playing a big part in a World Cup campaign; whereas your other rule about players having to be the best of their generation would surely mean that both he and Pelé couldn't be on your list, whereas you stated they are? What's silly, I'd suggest, is you contradicting yourself to make some kind of point about how players should be judged. Still, as you said, it is your opinion I just can't understand the logic behind your formulation of it! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 Been mentioned in the thread before, but as I'm watching MotD as I type and the commentator referenced just how good he was in his pomp, Michael Laudrup; better than any player playing in the Premier League this season? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 Even if the list isn't very long, surely the existence of such players disproves the point that performing at a World Cup isn't a necessary criterion for judging the greatness of a player. Also, I don't agree that a player can't be seen as an all time great if he plays within a decade of a player who may be considered better. To suggest that this means Di Stéfano can't be considered for an all-time great list (despite the fact that I personally doubt there were many better than him in the same generation) just seems daft. Similarly, you state that Best is the exception to the rule of playing a big part in a World Cup campaign; whereas your other rule about players having to be the best of their generation would surely mean that both he and Pelé couldn't be on your list, whereas you stated they are? What's silly, I'd suggest, is you contradicting yourself to make some kind of point about how players should be judged. Still, as you said, it is your opinion I just can't understand the logic behind your formulation of it! I'm not sure I said it's a necessary condition just important at least in my formulation of a list of the greatest ever. As far as having only a certain amount from a decade allowed it's just an effort to define some terms to clear things up a bit, I think a fair list has to do that instead of weighting/biasing it toward a particular era. Another issue is that I'm not really formulating a serious argument here, it's just scattered thought in a thread on a forum, maybe next time I'll post in the theorem, proof, lemma format. Jesus H Christ it's a bit of fun not a serious debate. I notice you've not defined any terms or even bothered to make a huge case for non-world cup players... Anyway I can't really be arsed to continue with this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 But discussions like this are always biased towards one era or another, that era is today. I confidently predict that in 20-25 years time there will be a forum with people claiming that the best player in the world from that season is the greatest ever, while others will be arguing for Messi only to have the younger people say that caveman football from the 2000's and 2010's doesnt count because all the players were unfit and didnt know anything about tactics back then or that Messi cant be on the list because Cristano Ronaldo was and having two people who are about the same age would make things too complicated. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted November 5, 2012 Share Posted November 5, 2012 Been mentioned in the thread before, but as I'm watching MotD as I type and the commentator referenced just how good he was in his pomp, Michael Laudrup; better than any player playing in the Premier League this season? yes not many star for Real Madrid, Barcelona and Juventus(wehn italian football at its peak). I think he is also admired by both Clasico teams which is very very rare Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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