Pelle Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 I don't think he has to win the WC. I might've said that, but if so I've changed my mind a litle. But he has to do better on international level than he has so far. Whenever I've seen him for Argentina he's been nothing special being man marked all the time. Maradona was man marked too but handled it. But it's so hard to compare. They are/were great both of them and it's almost like splitting hairs. Just like with Pele, Cruyff, etc, etc. Etc was a great player. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rjw63 Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Nigel Callaghan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MCU Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Neymar might have a say in that. I don't think he should be shouted about too much until he comes out of the Brazilian league. I'm not sure on best, especially because I'm just 20, but without doubt my favourite player was Thierry Henry in his Arsenal days. Joy to watch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFCforever1991 Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 I don't think he should be shouted about too much until he comes out of the Brazilian league. I'm not sure on best, especially because I'm just 20, but without doubt my favourite player was Thierry Henry in his Arsenal days. Joy to watch. Yeah I responding to the world cup comments the world cup. Not Neymar being the greatest player ever, which IMO he won't be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troglodyte Posted October 31, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted October 31, 2012 Whenever I've seen him for Argentina he's been nothing special being man marked all the time. Many say this, and some goes as far to suggest that he doesn't 'perform' for Argentina. There have been times in the past where he's been effectively man-marked out of games, as you say, which was as much down to Argentina's poor setup and, from what I've seen, a lack of effort on the parts of other players. However, this year Messi has scored 12 goals in 8 international games. Hopefully, he can keep this up and take it into the next World Cup. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Papillon Posted October 31, 2012 Share Posted October 31, 2012 Argentina have a really good team right now, but then I felt their last two world cup teams were very capable. Brazil IMO aren't up to much although hosting it gives them a great advantage. Argentina have over the last two years made Messi more the focal point and looked to emulate Barca's style, so that will greatly benefit him. Messi will be 27 at the next world cup so probably his last chance to dominate a world cup, he surely won't be at his peak when he's 31. I just don't see how he can be called the greatest of all time until he dominates a world cup. I think the World Cup thing is a stupid argument, and always has been. People do not choose where they come from, they can only steer their own faith with their career. A player from a nation with 5M people cannot compete on the same level as one from a country with 80M - so there is a flaw right there. Messi is compared to Maradona of course, so they are on equal terms. However, a World Cup is 7 games. You could suck for three games but still edge it do to luck, people can get red cards and totally alter outcomes, there could be penalties and stuff which a player has no control over - and last put not least, the best player could be awful every game and his country could still win the lot. Greece won the EC and Liverpool won the CL a few years back, in no way were they the best team of that tournament but everything can happen over a few games. That does not happen in the league and it does not happen in a career over 10 years. Secondly, the World Cup is not the pinnacle of football standards; the Champions League is and Messi has won that already. The WC is of course the biggest spectacle and the one with the most prestigue, but it is basically a huge show and a "break" from real football life. What Messi, Ronaldo and every star player in the future struggles with is that Maradona and even Pele were before them. If you are first, your legacy will live on and create a much more holier glory around what happened back then - and nothing in the future will ever surpass it so to speak. When Zidane and Ronaldinho were at their peak I wondered if I were every going to see something like that again, they Messi and Ronaldo came along. So I wonder now, when they retire in 5-6 years, will we ever see someone like them again? Hard to believe! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelle Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Many say this, and some goes as far to suggest that he doesn't 'perform' for Argentina. There have been times in the past where he's been effectively man-marked out of games, as you say, which was as much down to Argentina's poor setup and, from what I've seen, a lack of effort on the parts of other players. However, this year Messi has scored 12 goals in 8 international games. Hopefully, he can keep this up and take it into the next World Cup. Yep, it seems like he's improved his game on the international "level" now, which might make up for a really good WC in 2014. And IMO, that's what he needs to do. I can't deny that I haven't seen those qualification games so I can't say whether the opponents were too bad or if he's done enough already. But it's looking promising for him to have a really good WC. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFCforever1991 Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 There are countless numbers of players that do well in a WC, but never produce in any other competition. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pelle Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 Yes, but there are not that many that have dominated in leagues, cups and on the international level. Messi is close, but not really there yet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mikeyp102 Posted November 1, 2012 Author Share Posted November 1, 2012 Yep, it seems like he's improved his game on the international "level" now, which might make up for a really good WC in 2014. And IMO, that's what he needs to do. I can't deny that I haven't seen those qualification games so I can't say whether the opponents were too bad or if he's done enough already. But it's looking promising for him to have a really good WC. Apparently (Tim vickery, bbc) Argentina are looking good against good opposition the new manager has completely changed the team around so messi is the focal point, with aguero off him, then they have higuan as something different... They are weak at the back though... If they do well at WC 2014, messi will be vital and that could put him right up there as greatest of all time Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zatman Posted November 1, 2012 Share Posted November 1, 2012 I dont think Argentina are all that, defensively are poor(never replaced Ayala) and still persisting with a joke player like Gago in midfield will hold them back. On other hand even though hosts Brazil arent getting much of a mention but they have some players that will be interesting especially if Oscar can continue with his fine start at Chelsea Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Qwpzxjor1 Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 Brazil's front 3 is Oscar, Neymar and Hulk. That will be the best attack in the world in 2-3 years if those 3 continue improving at the rate they are now. As host nations, I expect them to be really dangerous and they will kick on from there. Brazil should, by reputation, be the best team in the world. They've slipped of late but their newest batch of players will get them back there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HolteEndRob Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 RE: Ronaldo Vs Messi. I saw a stat earlier that I thought was weird... Ronaldo is 869 days older than Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo Junior is 869 days older than Thiago Messi. Just thought I'd share because it's pretty weird. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFCforever1991 Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 RE: Ronaldo Vs Messi. I saw a stat earlier that I thought was weird... Ronaldo is 869 days older than Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo Junior is 869 days older than Thiago Messi. Just thought I'd share because it's pretty weird. Wow Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted November 2, 2012 Share Posted November 2, 2012 I think the World Cup thing is a stupid argument, and always has been. People do not choose where they come from, they can only steer their own faith with their career. A player from a nation with 5M people cannot compete on the same level as one from a country with 80M - so there is a flaw right there. Messi is compared to Maradona of course, so they are on equal terms. However, a World Cup is 7 games. You could suck for three games but still edge it do to luck, people can get red cards and totally alter outcomes, there could be penalties and stuff which a player has no control over - and last put not least, the best player could be awful every game and his country could still win the lot. Greece won the EC and Liverpool won the CL a few years back, in no way were they the best team of that tournament but everything can happen over a few games. That does not happen in the league and it does not happen in a career over 10 years. Secondly, the World Cup is not the pinnacle of football standards; the Champions League is and Messi has won that already. The WC is of course the biggest spectacle and the one with the most prestigue, but it is basically a huge show and a "break" from real football life. What Messi, Ronaldo and every star player in the future struggles with is that Maradona and even Pele were before them. If you are first, your legacy will live on and create a much more holier glory around what happened back then - and nothing in the future will ever surpass it so to speak. When Zidane and Ronaldinho were at their peak I wondered if I were every going to see something like that again, they Messi and Ronaldo came along. So I wonder now, when they retire in 5-6 years, will we ever see someone like them again? Hard to believe! The world cup is the biggest stage you can play on, also it's funny how invariably the greatest players manage make their mark at the world cup isn't it. When you think of the all time greats of the game you are most likely to think of someone that 'smashed' a world cup, whether that's Pele, Maradona, Cruyff, Beckenbauer, Zidane, Ronaldo, Puskas etc... The only real candidate for greatest ever (who didn't play at a world cup) is George Best IMO. The truly great players seem to be able to perform at this stage. I think it's definitely an important criteria to judging the best ever. Messi I expect to have a great world cup in 2014, I think he's starting to really find his form for the national side, as he showed with his stunning hat-trick against Brazil in June. Argentina have a stunning attack but poor defence, however if Messi hits top form for them he can win them the world cup, just like Maradona in 86. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 The only real candidate for greatest ever (who didn't play at a world cup) is George Best IMO. Real Madrid fans might just disagree with you there. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XnaPY0Osz7k Though I guess winning five European cups, and scoring in all five finals kinda makes up for it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 I can accept that but he's still not on my personal all time great list, his team mate Puskas is though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troglodyte Posted November 3, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted November 3, 2012 Why is he not up there, in your opinion? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dr_Pangloss Posted November 3, 2012 Share Posted November 3, 2012 Why is he not up there, in your opinion? I can accept people putting him up there, but he wasn't IMO the greatest player of the decades he played in so on that basis I can't see how he's the greatest of all time, or even on 'the list' (lol). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Troglodyte Posted November 3, 2012 VT Supporter Share Posted November 3, 2012 I just don't really understand your line of argument. You're saying that the greatest players ever all made their mark at the World Cup, which in turn suggests Messi, as yet, cannot be rated as one of the greatest of all time. However, that is flawed, as most would agree that Di Stéfano is one of the greats. You disagree with this, saying he wouldn't be on your 'list', yet Michael Laudrup would - a player who didn't really perform at a World Cup to the level of the players you mentioned above (Pelé, Maradona, etc.) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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