Could Noah's Ark hold all the animals?

[JulieB]

Yawn still going on about JW and the Nazis. What a boring side-issue that Julie is happy to contend to distract from the absurd interpretations of the bible.

Hold on a minute... I've been accused of ducking the issue in the past and changing the subject to deflect the argument.

If you are bored then don't read the posts. SIMPLES!

[tonyh29]

SIMPLES!

should you be quoting what is clearly a meerkat with homosexual tendencies towards Sergei ?

[JulieB]

This is the insanity that JWs put their name to:

Link

A hospital has to go the time and effort of getting a court injunction to be able to save a baby's life against the wishes of her deranged parents. If that baby survives it should be taken away from them as soon it's born.

But then I notice you never mention that in fact if the woman had chosen to fly to the UK up until 24 weeks she could have killed the baby or Foetus by having an abortion?

Funny I've never heard you being so vociferous and morally outraged about Abortions?

It works both ways!

Edit Add: NOTE the change of tactic, deflecting away from original accusation that it was all lies that JWs stood up to the Nazis, that in fact they were Nazi collaborators...

[JulieB]

SIMPLES!

should you be quoting what is clearly a meerkat with homosexual tendencies towards Sergei ?

I'll quote what I like thanks.. without your permission!

[mjmooney]

SIMPLES!

should you be quoting what is clearly a meerkat with homosexual tendencies towards Sergei ?

I'll quote what I like thanks.. without your permission!

If you can believe the OT folk tales, talking meercats should be no problem.

[Kiwivillan]

Luke 20: 34 - 36 is talking about the proper position of Angels that they were unable to marry and have sex. Just like any of mankind who are resurrected to serve in the Heavans with Jesus. These were "Children of God" as opposed to Demons who were no longer part of Jehovah's heavenly organisation.

There is no inconsistency with other scriptures at all.

It backs up entirely what Jude states These “sons of the true God” were angels from heaven who materialized as humans and roamed the earth as men. They had not come at God’s direction; nor had they come to benefit the human family. Instead, they “forsook their own proper dwelling place” in heaven to have sexual relations with the beautiful women on earth. They became demons.

Jude specifically mentions the Angels having sex before the Flood....

Jude 6: 6,7 And the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day. 7 So too Sod′om and Go‧mor′rah and the cities about them, after they in the same manner as the foregoing ones had committed fornication excessively and gone out after flesh for unnatural use, are placed before [us] as a [warning] example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire.

In other words once these "foregoing ones" the Angels had materialised and made themselves Demons by forsaking their spiritual bodies and materialising and "gone after flesh for unnatural use"......... thereon at the Flood these Angels were stopped from materialising as physical beings and imprisoned in their spiritual bodies as he states they were "reserved in eternal bonds"... ie restricted.

Holy crap. You are pinning your whole argument on one passage in Jude against no other evidence in the other 65 books of the bible. Very, very shaky ground.

For ease of explanation

1. There is no mention at all of “the sons of God” coming down from heaven.

2. Why assume these “sons of God” are angels? The phrase is used concerning men, especially those who know the true God (Deut. 14:1 (R.S.V.); Hos. 1:10; Lk. 3:38; Jn 1:12; 1 Jn. 3:1).

3. If believers are to be made equal to angels (Lk. 20:35-36), will they still experience the same carnal desires which then motivated the sons of God, or have the possibility of giving way to them? Of course not!

4. Luke 20:35-36, clearly says that the angels do not marry: “They which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage...for they are equal unto the angels”.

5. It is commonly believed that the angels who are thought to have sinned came down to earth at the time of the garden of Eden incidents, but Genesis 6 concerns the time of the flood, which was many years later.

6. The Hebrew word for “giants” in Genesis 6:4, is also used to describe the sons of a man called Anak in Numbers 13:33. Freak human beings of unusual size or strength are sometimes born today, but it does not mean that their parents were angels.

7. We are not specifically told that the giants were the children of the “sons of God”. “There were giants…and also after that…the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men” (:4).

8. If Angels married women, then who were the children, and what were they like? The apocryphal book of 1 Enoch claims that the offspring were "evil spirits" and witches (1 Enoch 15:8-16:1)- but the Bible is utterly silent about this.

[Risso]

This is the insanity that JWs put their name to:

Link

A hospital has to go the time and effort of getting a court injunction to be able to save a baby's life against the wishes of her deranged parents. If that baby survives it should be taken away from them as soon it's born.

But then I notice you never mention that in fact if the woman had chosen to fly to the UK up until 24 weeks she could have killed the baby or Foetus by having an abortion?

Funny I've never heard you being so vociferous and morally outraged about Abortions?

It works both ways!

Edit Add: NOTE the change of tactic, deflecting away from original accusation that it was all lies that JWs stood up to the Nazis, that in fact they were Nazi collaborators...

Bollocks Julie. I don't agree with abortions at all in actual fact, and in any case it's got nothing to do with this case. The fact is, that in a life and death situation where there's a choice between saving a child's life and accepting a blood transfusion, JWs would let the child die.

As for the NAzis, I feel I've shown you up as a liar quite enough, however I'm more than prepared to carry on exposing your cult's bullshit if you'd like.

[kidlewis]

if catholics and other religions want to stop abortion, then allow condoms and contraception.

utter morons.

[tonyh29]

SIMPLES!

should you be quoting what is clearly a meerkat with homosexual tendencies towards Sergei ?

I'll quote what I like thanks.. without your permission!

who said anything about permission .. I'm not some leader of a cult where one has to abide by rules and follow blindly

[JulieB]

Luke 20: 34 - 36 is talking about the proper position of Angels that they were unable to marry and have sex. Just like any of mankind who are resurrected to serve in the Heavans with Jesus. These were "Children of God" as opposed to Demons who were no longer part of Jehovah's heavenly organisation.

There is no inconsistency with other scriptures at all.

It backs up entirely what Jude states These “sons of the true God” were angels from heaven who materialized as humans and roamed the earth as men. They had not come at God’s direction; nor had they come to benefit the human family. Instead, they “forsook their own proper dwelling place” in heaven to have sexual relations with the beautiful women on earth. They became demons.

Jude specifically mentions the Angels having sex before the Flood....

Jude 6: 6,7 And the angels that did not keep their original position but forsook their own proper dwelling place he has reserved with eternal bonds under dense darkness for the judgment of the great day. 7 So too Sod′om and Go‧mor′rah and the cities about them, after they in the same manner as the foregoing ones had committed fornication excessively and gone out after flesh for unnatural use, are placed before [us] as a [warning] example by undergoing the judicial punishment of everlasting fire.

In other words once these "foregoing ones" the Angels had materialised and made themselves Demons by forsaking their spiritual bodies and materialising and "gone after flesh for unnatural use"......... thereon at the Flood these Angels were stopped from materialising as physical beings and imprisoned in their spiritual bodies as he states they were "reserved in eternal bonds"... ie restricted.

Holy crap. You are pinning your whole argument on one passage in Jude against no other evidence in the other 65 books of the bible. Very, very shaky ground.

For ease of explanation

1. There is no mention at all of “the sons of God” coming down from heaven.

2. Why assume these “sons of God” are angels? The phrase is used concerning men, especially those who know the true God (Deut. 14:1 (R.S.V.); Hos. 1:10; Lk. 3:38; Jn 1:12; 1 Jn. 3:1).

3. If believers are to be made equal to angels (Lk. 20:35-36), will they still experience the same carnal desires which then motivated the sons of God, or have the possibility of giving way to them? Of course not!

4. Luke 20:35-36, clearly says that the angels do not marry: “They which shall be accounted worthy to obtain that world, and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage...for they are equal unto the angels”.

5. It is commonly believed that the angels who are thought to have sinned came down to earth at the time of the garden of Eden incidents, but Genesis 6 concerns the time of the flood, which was many years later.

6. The Hebrew word for “giants” in Genesis 6:4, is also used to describe the sons of a man called Anak in Numbers 13:33. Freak human beings of unusual size or strength are sometimes born today, but it does not mean that their parents were angels.

7. We are not specifically told that the giants were the children of the “sons of God”. “There were giants…and also after that…the sons of God came in unto the daughters of men” (:4).

8. If Angels married women, then who were the children, and what were they like? The apocryphal book of 1 Enoch claims that the offspring were "evil spirits" and witches (1 Enoch 15:8-16:1)- but the Bible is utterly silent about this.

I've explained all this to you. The scripture in Jude ties in with all the other scriptures I also quoted and if what you are ascerting the the two scriptures in Peter I quoted make no sense at all.

For starters..

1. There is no mention at all of “the sons of God” coming down from heaven.

Really?.... What does Job specifically state about Satan who was chief of the fallen angels?

Now it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and even Satan proceeded to enter right among them. 7 Then Jehovah said to Satan: “Where do you come from?” At that Satan answered Jehovah and said: “From roving about in the earth and from walking about in it.”

If you have no beleif in the Bible why are you asking these questions? I don't understand.. is it just in the hope that you'll catch me out or something?

[JulieB]

I feel I've shown you up as a liar quite enough,

Oh right.. so now I'm a liar?.. as well as Jehovah's Witnesses.

All of us can make mistakes or be misinformed but I don't deliberately tell lies.

It also appears that the guy who was behind one of the things you posted deliberately contrived to water the original text down and actually renounced his faith as a JW a couple of years later.... because he was a Nazi sympathiser.

[Jon]

SIMPLES!

should you be quoting what is clearly a meerkat with homosexual tendencies towards Sergei ?

I'll quote what I like thanks.. without your permission!

sense of humour bypass award of the day goes to ....

[JulieB]

sense of humour bypass award of the day goes to .... Laughing

Well apologies if it was meant in mere jest.. No I haven't got much of a sense of humour today.

I need to work!

[Jon]

Bollocks Julie...

As for the NAzis, I feel I've shown you up as a liar quite enough, however I'm more than prepared to carry on exposing your cult's bullshit if you'd like.

[Jon]

I need to work!

stop postiing in here then! :winkold:

[Risso]

I feel I've shown you up as a liar quite enough,

Oh right.. so now I'm a liar?.. as well as Jehovah's Witnesses.

All of us can make mistakes or be misinformed but I don't deliberately tell lies.

It also appears that the guy who was behind one of the things you posted deliberately contrived to water the original text down and actually renounced his faith as a JW a couple of years later.... because he was a Nazi sympathiser.

Yes, you are a liar, you lie, twist the truth, misinterpret things, deflect and distort to protect the cult you belong to. Standard sect behaviour of course, and you've done it dozens of times in this thread. Take the example above. I post a recent case of a hospital having to go to court to be allowed to act in a child's best interests, and you try and deflect by bringing in something about abortion.

[Kiwivillan]

If you have no beleif in the Bible why are you asking these questions? I don't understand.. is it just in the hope that you'll catch me out or something?

You choose a lifestyle to promote a religious choice on others that have no interest.

I have knowledge beyond the average knowledge of a non-religious person.

I have decided it is a load of nonsense.

That does not preclude me from pointing out discrepencies in your interpretation.

How can I possibly catch you out? You are clearly so far down the rabbit hole you can not discern between what you are instructed to believe and anything else.

[kidlewis]

the classic would be if someone were to perform genuine miracles and say they are god, no one would believe him anyway.

so even if you believe in god if you were face to face with someone a la JESUS mk 2, they wouldn't believe it.

[Risso]

the classic would be if someone were to perform genuine miracles and say they are god, no one would believe him anyway.

so even if you believe in god if you were face to face with someone a la JESUS mk 2, they wouldn't believe it.

I'd be quite happy to believe it. If any claims for anything vaguely miraculous or religious could be tested under strict scientific conditions, then great, bring it on. As it is, the ONLY thing we have to go on are the mistranslated words from people who lived thousands of years ago.

[TrentVilla]

However he was just as fierce in his condemnation of Hitler and the Nazis.

I've not really seen anything to support this yet Julie, the letter in 1933 certainly isn't evidence of this as I've already illustrated.

The whole history of the Bible students in Germany is in the Yearbook 1974. I am quoting from this publication

Here is the full transcript of the letter that was sent October 7th 1934

TO THE OFFICIALS OF THE GOVERNMENT:

“The Word of Jehovah God, as set out in the Holy Bible, is the supreme law, and to us it is our sole guide for the reason that we have devoted ourselves to God and are true and sincere followers of Christ Jesus.

“During the past year, and contrary to God’s law and in violation of our rights, you have forbidden us as Jehovah’s witnesses to meet together to study God’s Word and worship and serve him. In his Word he commands us that we shall not forsake the assembling of ourselves together. (Hebrews 10:25) To us Jehovah commands: ‘Ye are my witnesses that I am God. Go and tell the people my message.’ (Isaiah 43:10, 12; Isaiah 6:9; Matthew 24:14) There is a direct conflict between your law and God’s law, and, following the lead of the faithful apostles, ‘we ought to obey God rather than men,’ and this we will do. (Acts 5:29) Therefore this is to advise you that at any cost we will obey God’s commandments, will meet together for the study of his Word, and will worship and serve him as he has commanded. If your government or officers do violence to us because we are obeying God, then our blood will be upon you and you will answer to Almighty God.

“We have no interest in political affairs, but are wholly devoted to God’s kingdom under Christ his King. We will do no injury or harm to anyone. We would delight to dwell in peace and do good to all men as we have opportunity, but, since your government and its officers continue in your attempt to force us to disobey the highest law of the universe, we are compelled to now give you notice that we will, by his grace, obey Jehovah God and fully trust Him to deliver us from all oppression and oppressors.”

Also on that same date of October 7 1934

In full support of their German brothers, Jehovah’s witnesses throughout the earth met on October 7 1934 and, after united prayer to Jehovah, sent a cablegram warning the Hitler government:

“Your ill-treatment of Jehovah’s witnesses shocks all good people of earth and dishonors God’s name. Refrain from further persecuting Jehovah’s witnesses; otherwise God will destroy you and your national party.”

Later after the Nazis turned their attention towards other sections of society like the Jews etc the condemnation became even stronger. Up to this point whatever Hitler's intentions one of his main targets was indeed the Bible Students...

His response to this letter and the telegrammes was to declare "I will exterminate this brood"

I'm sorry Julie but there is nothing in the above that does anything to change the view I expressed in the post you quote. This is not in any shape or form evidence to support your stance, quite the opposite actually.

I've already illustrated that the Nazi party's stance and indeed their actions pre-dated 1933 and can be easily traced back to 1920. The above letter is all about self interest and presevation it has nothing to do with other persecuted groups.

There is no defence of the Jews or outrage at the actions of the Nazi party towards anyone other than their own.

I'm sorry but I still see no evidence to support your previous claim, I see only evidence of a faith group looking after their own which seems to me fairly standard practise of most faith groups.

I would applaud any religious movement that stood up for the Jews and any group of people persicuted by the Nazi movement but your faith like the Catholic Church didn't do that.