kidlewis Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 whoever wrote the bible, how do they know what hell is like? or heaven for that matter? it might not be that bad. I mean if hell is for sin then it will have casinos whore houses alcohol unprotected sex butt sex any sex which doesn't include cumming in a vagina drugs GM food atheists all other religions (which isn't the correct one) as Timbaughan says, all the interesting people swearing law breaking lots of open log fires people obviously wrote about hell being hot and firey because of volcanoes and lava which come from the ground, presenting danger which is evil. that would be the logical explanation about the scriptures description of hell. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieB Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Lies. Really... actual date and substance of the Letter that Rutherford sent to Hitler. with quotes.... On February 9, 1934, J. F. Rutherford, the president of the Watch Tower Society, sent a letter of protest to Hitler stating: “You may successfully resist any and all men, but you cannot successfully resist Jehovah God. . . . In the name of Jehovah God and His anointed King, Christ Jesus, I demand that you give order to all officials and servants of your government that Jehovah’s witnesses in Germany be permitted to peaceably assemble and without hindrance worship God.” Rutherford set March 24, 1934, as the deadline. He said that if by that time relief did not come to the German Witnesses, the facts about the persecution would be published throughout Germany and the rest of the world. The Nazis answered Rutherford’s demand with stepped-up abuses, sending many of Jehovah’s Witnesses to the concentration camps that had recently been set up. Thus, they were among the first inmates of these camps. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted November 9, 2011 Moderator Share Posted November 9, 2011 You really are scraping the barrel trying to twist matters. In 1933 Hitler had not carried out any atrocities against the Jews I tried to move the topic on, really I did... I can't ignore this though because it is a statement that while factually correct is far from being the whole truth Julie. While the death camps might have come post 1933 the views of Hitler and the Nazi party toward the Jewish people were already out there in the open. As far back as 1920 the Nazi party published their 25 Point Party Program which clearly detailed their intentions to segregate the Jewish population from the true German nation. It is highly unlikely that the "final solution" had been conceived at this point in time I admit but the anti semitic agenda was already clear for anyone to see. They were already talking about their plans to abrogate Jews political, legal and civil rights. The warning signs were there and they weren't exactly hidden from site so whoever wrote a letter in 1933 it doesn't really matter, while atrosities might not have yet happened the Nazi party had already shown its true colours if indeed they ever tried to hide them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieB Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 "the hooked nosed, stooped-shouldered little individual who stands on the street corner trying to gyp you out of every nickel you got" "Be it known once and for all that those profiteering, conscienceless, selfish men who call themselves Jews, and who control the greater portion of the finances of the world, will never be the rulers of this new earth. God would not risk such selfish men with such an important position" Where did those quotes come from then... they certainly weren't in the letter you posted were they? Judge Rutherford gave many radio broadcasts denouncing the Nazis for the whole world to listen to, so why would he do this if he was a Nazi sympathiser? He was clearly outspoken but nowhere even in Wikipedia page does it make the claims you are stating that he upset anyone with anti Jewish statements According to Wills, Rutherford emerged from prison in 1919 bitter against the world and the collusion he saw between the clergy and military that had secured his imprisonment. Soon after his release he coined the term "Satan's organization" to refer to this supposed conspiracy.[175] In Watchtower articles Rutherford was similarly scathing towards big business, politics and the League of Nations.[176] Rogerson describes Rutherford's attitude towards the clergy—his avowed enemies—as "unadulterated hatred".[68] His attacks on clergymen, particularly those of the Catholic Church, from the late 1920s were strong enough to attract a ban on his broadcasts by the NBC radio network, which condemned his "rabid attack upon organized religion and the clergy" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieB Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 You really are scraping the barrel trying to twist matters. In 1933 Hitler had not carried out any atrocities against the Jews I tried to move the topic on, really I did... I can't ignore this though because it is a statement that while factually correct is far from being the whole truth Julie. While the death camps might have come post 1933 the views of Hitler and the Nazi party toward the Jewish people were already out there in the open. As far back as 1920 the Nazi party published their 25 Point Party Program which clearly detailed their intentions to segregate the Jewish population from the true German nation. It is highly unlikely that the "final solution" had been conceived at this point in time I admit but the anti semitic agenda was already clear for anyone to see. They were already talking about their plans to abrogate Jews political, legal and civil rights. The warning signs were there and they weren't exactly hidden from site so whoever wrote a letter in 1933 it doesn't really matter, while atrosities might not have yet happened the Nazi party had already shown its true colours if indeed they ever tried to hide them. But the point is Trent THAT letter in 1933 doesn't in anyway condone Jewish persecution in anyway at all. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieB Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 THAT letter was written in the background of the Bible Students being accuded as co conspirators with Jews... it was a direct response to accusations... and if JWs or the Watchtower were anti Jew why would they publically announce in 1930.... A church magazine in Germany charged that the Witnesses and the Jews were coconspirators in revolutionary movements. In response, the April 15, 1930, German edition of The Golden Age (forerunner of Awake!) stated: “We have no reason to regard this false accusation as an insult—as we are convinced that the Jew is at least as valuable a person as a nominal Christian; but we reject the above untruth of the church tabloid because it is aimed at deprecating our work, as if it were being done not for the sake of the Gospel but for the Jews.” Thus, professor of history John Weiss wrote: “The Witnesses were free of German racial nationalism and had not brooded for centuries over the failure of the Jews to convert. The Witnesses still held to the original, if patronizing, Christian belief of the need to persuade all potential converts to Christ The letter I was orignally referring to was the one Rutherford sent to Hitler in 1934. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Declaration of Facts which I assume you are quoting from also contained the words The present government of Germany has declared emphatically against Big Business oppressors and in opposition to the wrongful religious influence in the political affairs of the nation. Such is exactly our position:...Instead of being against the principles advocated by the government of Germany, we stand squarely for such principles and point out that Jehovah God through Christ Jesus will bring about the full realization of these principles. Out of Interest Julie , what was the official word from head office on why the world didn't end in Sept 1975? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted November 9, 2011 Moderator Share Posted November 9, 2011 But the point is Trent THAT letter in 1933 doesn't in anyway condone Jewish persecution in anyway at all. I've not said it did, until this debate I had no knowledge of the letter but I will look into it myself and form my own view on that. What is clear though is that the Nazi's views on Jew's were clear and indeed published a considerable amount of time prior to 1933. That is documented fact, not opinion. Regardless of if the letter in 1933 (whoever) wrote it condone's persecution, the point is that if it doesn't condemn it then that is pretty damning because as I've illustrated enough was already known about their position in relation to the Jews. As I've said I will read the letter and some back ground on it myself but based on what I've seen in this thread the letter seemingly doesn't condone or condemn. It appears to me to be more concerned with ingratiating the writer than anything else to me. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieB Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 But the point is Trent THAT letter in 1933 doesn't in anyway condone Jewish persecution in anyway at all. I've not said it did, until this debate I had no knowledge of the letter but I will look into it myself and form my own view on that. What is clear though is that the Nazi's views on Jew's were clear and indeed published a considerable amount of time prior to 1933. That is documented fact, not opinion. Regardless of if the letter in 1933 (whoever) wrote it condone's persecution, the point is that if it doesn't condemn it then that is pretty damning because as I've illustrated enough was already known about their position in relation to the Jews. As I've said I will read the letter and some back ground on it myself but based on what I've seen in this thread the letter seemingly doesn't condone or condemn. It appears to me to be more concerned with ingratiating the writer than anything else to me. As I said as far back as 1930 the German edition of Awake magazine clearly stated JWs attitude towards the Jews..... and it is the complete opposite of the portrayal Risso is trying to paint... In response, the April 15, 1930, German edition of The Golden Age (forerunner of Awake!) stated: “We have no reason to regard this false accusation as an insult—as we are convinced that the Jew is at least as valuable a person as a nominal Christian; but we reject the above untruth of the church tabloid because it is aimed at deprecating our work, as if it were being done not for the sake of the Gospel but for the Jews.” Thus, professor of history John Weiss wrote: “The Witnesses were free of German racial nationalism and had not brooded for centuries over the failure of the Jews to convert. The Witnesses still held to the original, if patronizing, Christian belief of the need to persuade all potential converts to Christ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Risso Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 THAT letter was written in the background of the Bible Students being accuded as co conspirators with Jews... it was a direct response to accusations... and if JWs or the Watchtower were anti Jew why would they publically announce in 1930.... A church magazine in Germany charged that the Witnesses and the Jews were coconspirators in revolutionary movements. In response, the April 15, 1930, German edition of The Golden Age (forerunner of Awake!) stated: “We have no reason to regard this false accusation as an insult—as we are convinced that the Jew is at least as valuable a person as a nominal Christian; but we reject the above untruth of the church tabloid because it is aimed at deprecating our work, as if it were being done not for the sake of the Gospel but for the Jews.” Thus, professor of history John Weiss wrote: “The Witnesses were free of German racial nationalism and had not brooded for centuries over the failure of the Jews to convert. The Witnesses still held to the original, if patronizing, Christian belief of the need to persuade all potential converts to Christ The letter I was orignally referring to was the one Rutherford sent to Hitler in 1934. See the quotes from Ruttherford about the Jews, and also his remarks about Catholics in his various writings. He was anti-semitic and anti-Catholic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steaknchips Posted November 9, 2011 Author Share Posted November 9, 2011 Bickster, Because its not you...Its mankind. We were God's creation and he loves us...Evil put sin into mankind..The only wage for sin is death. God had to(well he didnt have to but he loves his creation) come to earth as a man and die to fulfill that wage and save his creation. So it was a grand failure then? Mankind is still pretty sinful. I thought he was infallible? Not only that, his omniscience means he knew it would fail before it failed. It means he knew the flood would fail (so why bother doing it?) but it didn't stop him from committing watery genocide anyway. So it seems that when staring complete and utter failure in the face, this God still goes ahead and fails anyway. He's not only immoral but a complete **** moron. He's all power and the creator of all things including the rules that define original sin and yet he can't overrule them. He defined his own demise and then blamed it on his creation so he's a **** coward too. I hope I meet the guy some day so I can kick him in the bollocks. Sin is in the world..There is no failure on any part because in the end God wins. Its like I said.. Try to imagine 2 great forces beyond the universe playing a game of chess. Good v Evil. 1st move, God creates. 2nd move, Evil puts sin into the creation to destroy it. 3rd move, (you cant undo the move played by Evil, you can only try and counteract it) So God comes down as man, thus becoming one of us, he lives and feels as a man. He dies which means the sin is pointless. The wage for sin is paid..It was the mother of all moves in this game of chess. God made a move to save his creation even though we sin.We are saved through Jesus Christ. 4th move(this is my guess), Evil possess Mohammed,thus producing the Koran which is brilliant in the way it works to gain control of the creation. It was made to spread fast and hard it takes the creation away from Jesus. A coward? You go through the life Jesus went through.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 whoever wrote the bible, how do they know what hell is like? or heaven for that matter? it might not be that bad. The JW's believe that only 144,000 specially selected people will go to heaven and be at gods side. (Not sure if they are all there yet). Also there is no hell per se. When people die they are just dead, no afterlife. However, those that have lead their lives properly and served Jehovah well will be resurrected to live on the new paradise earth after the day of judgement. The new world under one holy government, a world free of sin, disease, suffering etc. I've read their book. 8) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 If it is absolutely guaranteed that God will win, then why does Satan bother? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidlewis Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 so hang on if he died to forgive our sins then why does it matter if people sin? it's been offset against the death of Jesus. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kidlewis Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 is the death of Jesus like one massive hedge fund against Sin? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieB Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 Out of Interest Julie , what was the official word from head office on why the world didn't end in Sept 1975? I didn't become a JW till 1983 ... but I do know many many JWs thought Armageddon would come in 1975 and I think even WT literature made misleading statements of expectancy in the run up to that year. At the convention held in Baltimore.. 1966...Maryland, F. W. Franz gave the concluding talk. He began by saying: “Just before I got on the platform a young man came to me and said, ‘Say, what does this 1975 mean?’” Brother Franz then referred to the many questions that had arisen as to whether the material in the new book meant that by 1975 Armageddon would be finished, and Satan would be bound. He stated, in essence: ‘It could. But we are not saying. All things are possible with God. But we are not saying. And don’t any of you be specific in saying anything that is going to happen between now and 1975. But the big point of it all is this, dear friends: Time is short. Time is running out, no question about that.’ So to anwer your question.. the word from Head Office was as such regarding 1975 In modern times such eagerness, commendable in itself, has led to attempts at setting dates for the desired liberation from the suffering and troubles that are the lot of persons throughout the earth. With the appearance of the book Life Everlasting—in Freedom of the Sons of God, and its comments as to how appropriate it would be for the millennial reign of Christ to parallel the seventh millennium of man’s existence, considerable expectation was aroused regarding the year 1975. There were statements made then, and thereafter, stressing that this was only a possibility. Unfortunately, however, along with such cautionary information, there were other statements published that implied that such realization of hopes by that year was more of a probability than a mere possibility. It is to be regretted that these latter statements apparently overshadowed the cautionary ones and contributed to a buildup of the expectation already initiated. 6 In its issue of July 15, 1976, The Watchtower, commenting on the inadvisability of setting our sights on a certain date, stated: “If anyone has been disappointed through not following this line of thought, he should now concentrate on adjusting his viewpoint, seeing that it was not the word of God that failed or deceived him and brought disappointment, but that his own understanding was based on wrong premises.” In saying “anyone,” The Watchtower included all disappointed ones of Jehovah’s Witnesses, hence including persons having to do with the publication of the information that contributed to the buildup of hopes centered on that date. I'm always amazed how ANYONE could give a date at all.. Jesus clearly stated NO ONE knows an actual date... we're only told of what the conditions on the Earth would be at that time.... (Matthew 24:36-37) . . .Concerning that day and hour nobody knows, neither the angels of the heavens nor the Son, but only the Father. 37 For just as the days of Noah were, so the presence of the Son of man will be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted November 9, 2011 Moderator Share Posted November 9, 2011 I've read their book. 8) But did you understand it correctly? :winkold: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
steaknchips Posted November 9, 2011 Author Share Posted November 9, 2011 If it is absolutely guaranteed that God will win, then why does Satan bother? Satan is very powerful..Yet he dosnt win, it says so in the bible...Everything that has happened so far is in the bible..The way it has all panned out, is in the bible. Why would the last part change? The bible is the story of life..From start to finish. It hasnt been easy for God..But all through it he has stood by his creation. The flood may have seemed drastic but again ,it was to save the creation.. The fight in the universe is over the creation..One wants to save it/keep it(God)...The other is out to destroy it/take control of it(Satan).. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wainy316 Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 If it is absolutely guaranteed that God will win, then why does Satan bother? Satan is very powerful..Yet he dosnt win, it says so in the bible...Everything that has happened so far is in the bible..The way it has all panned out, is in the bible. Why would the last part change? The bible is the story of life..From start to finish. It hasnt been easy for God..But all through it he has stood by his creation. The flood may have seemed drastic but again ,it was to save the creation.. The fight in the universe is over the creation..One wants to save it/keep it(God)...The other is out to destroy it/take control of it(Satan).. If you're going to put spoilers on the internet then can you at least put a warning first! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GarethRDR Posted November 9, 2011 Share Posted November 9, 2011 The way it has all panned out, is in the bible. Why would the last part change? So if our path is pre-determined, how does anyone have free-will? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts