The Arab Spring and "the War on Terror"

[chrisp65]

that phrase 'small price to pay' is quite Orwellian in its own way

[Awol]

that phrase 'small price to pay' is quite Orwellian in its own way

Indeed it is, but I fear our pals in the IS are far more of a threat to the west than our understandably cynical public are prepared to accept.

The full consequences of Blair crying wolf over WMD may yet to be felt.

[snowychap]

Interesting language used by Tony Abbott, our PM, today: 

 

“Regrettably, for some time to come, Australians will have to endure more security than we’re used to, and more inconvenience than we’d like. Regrettably, for some time to come, the delicate balance between freedom and security may have to shift. There may be more restrictions on some so that there can be more protections for others. After all, the most basic freedom of all is the freedom to walk the streets unharmed and to sleep safe in our beds at night. Creating new offences that are harder to beat on a technicality may be a small price to pay for saving lives and for maintaining the social fabric of an open, free and multicultural nation.”

 

 

 

Trotted out by many is the line about defending our freedom(s) as much as our person(s) with the often implicit (though sometimes explicit) caveat that, of course, we might need to temporarily and for some certain types of people set them aside a bit (or more).

[DanishVillan]

 

that phrase 'small price to pay' is quite Orwellian in its own way

Indeed it is, but I fear our pals in the IS are far more of a threat to the west than our understandably cynical public are prepared to accept.

 

Why?

Not even Israel really seem scared of them.

The usually scream of red lines and nukes if anyone farts in their general direction.

[Awol]

that phrase 'small price to pay' is quite Orwellian in its own way

Indeed it is, but I fear our pals in the IS are far more of a threat to the west than our understandably cynical public are prepared to accept.

Why?

Not even Israel really seem scared of them.

The usually scream of red lines and nukes if anyone farts in their general direction.

It's not about them posing a conventional threat of invasion to western countries, it's the asymmetric threat.

Syria was awash with WMD before the civil war and given the amount of military facilities IS and other Islamist groups have captured I find it hard to believe they haven't obtained chemical or biological weapons/agents.

Add to that the recent announcements by Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula and AQ in the Islamic Maghreb that they and other groups should form one common front with IS. AQAP has the most sophisticated Islamist bomb makers out there while AQIM has huge ungoverned space (the Saheel) in which to operate, plus seaborne access to the Med and Atlantic.

Add to that the clear and strong links between these various groups and certain communities in the west (now in UK alone containing 100's of veterans from the Syrian/Iraq conflict), the stated aims of these groups to launch attacks within western countries.

The mix of those factors is potentially explosive and while we as publics obviously shouldn't be scared, neither should we delude ourselves that it's all a plot by capitalist authoritarian 1%ers to gallop of with our civil liberties in a swag bag.

I don't often agree with Blair but we do need to destroy the core of IS quick sharp. If that means we have to accept military casualties to achieve the aim then so be it.

[Ads]

To back up what I said a few days ago regarding rubber dingy rapids and foreign fighters, between the US and French air forces, perhaps IS Command could do us a favour by continuing to thin the numbers of UK fighters capable of returning home too.

 

http://www.yourmiddleeast.com/culture/exclusive-qa-with-former-islamic-state-member_26696

 

foreign recruits who were put in the suicide squads not because they were "great and God wanted it" ... but basically because they were useless for IS

Edited September 22, 2014 by limpid

[DanishVillan]

 

 

 

that phrase 'small price to pay' is quite Orwellian in its own way

Indeed it is, but I fear our pals in the IS are far more of a threat to the west than our understandably cynical public are prepared to accept.

 

Why?

Not even Israel really seem scared of them.

The usually scream of red lines and nukes if anyone farts in their general direction.

It's not about them posing a conventional threat of invasion to western countries, it's the asymmetric threat.

Syria was awash with WMD before the civil war and given the amount of military facilities IS and other Islamist groups have captured I find it hard to believe they haven't obtained chemical or biological weapons/agents.

Add to that the recent announcements by Al Qaeda in the Arabian Peninsula and AQ in the Islamic Maghreb that they and other groups should form one common front with IS. AQAP has the most sophisticated Islamist bomb makers out there while AQIM has huge ungoverned space (the Saheel) in which to operate, plus seaborne access to the Med and Atlantic.

Add to that the clear and strong links between these various groups and certain communities in the west (now in UK alone containing 100's of veterans from the Syrian/Iraq conflict), the stated aims of these groups to launch attacks within western countries.

The mix of those factors is potentially explosive and while we as publics obviously shouldn't be scared, neither should we delude ourselves that it's all a plot by capitalist authoritarian 1%ers to gallop of with our civil liberties in a swag bag.

I don't often agree with Blair but we do need to destroy the core of IS quick sharp. If that means we have to accept military casualties to achieve the aim then so be it.

 

We arm them, fund them and trade with them. They are controlled opposition.

Think about all those Iraq soldiers just leaving their weapons.

Even if it wasn´t standard procedure, wouldn´t they take the few seconds to destroy them before they ran?

They didn´t, because they were ordered to leave them in crisp condition.

Blair is just warmongering. Again.

[Awol]

Of course, how stupid of me.

[TrentVilla]

 

To back up what I said a few days ago regarding rubber dingy rapids and foreign fighters, between the US and French air forces, perhaps IS Command could do us a favour by continuing to thin the numbers of UK fighters capable of returning home too.

 

http://www.yourmiddleeast.com/culture/exclusive-qa-with-former-islamic-state-member_26696

 

foreign recruits who were put in the suicide squads not because they were "great and God wanted it" ... but basically because they were useless for IS

 

 

Blimey, that is some read.

[Ads]

We arm, fund and control...IS? Is that what is being suggested or have I missed the point?

[TrentVilla]

We arm, fund and control...IS? Is that what is being suggested or have I missed the point?

 

I think its part of Alex Salmond's back up plan.

[TrentVilla]

Following up on the informative (as always) posts from AWOL and Ads on this topic, anyone who still doesn't think that IS(IS) pose a threat to those in the West might want to have a look at the following.

 

If anyone seriously thinks these chaps are under our direction or control in any shape or form are utterly deluded or seriously ill informed.

 

 

'If you can kill a disbelieving American or European - especially the spiteful and filthy French - or an Australian, or a Canadian, or any other disbeliever from the disbelievers waging war, including the citizens of the countries that entered into a coalition against the Islamic State … kill him in any manner or way however it may be,' says al-Adnani.  

 

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2764736/ISIS-urges-Muslims-kill-disbelievers-calls-Secretary-State-John-Kerry-old-uncircumcised-geezer-latest-audio-release.html#ixzz3E2lwlRYU 

[DanishVillan]

Yeah we should all form our opinion from a quote from the Daily Mail.

How about this quote:

"Deception is a state of mind and the mind of the State." - James Jesus Angleton

[Ads]

Yeah we should all form our opinion from a quote from the Daily Mail.

How about this quote:

"Deception is a state of mind and the mind of the State." - James Jesus Angleton

 

The Dialy Mail isn't the source. Here is another link to the same rant: http://justpaste.it/aladnane

 

A couple of "highlights: in between shouting "the Jews! The Jews the Jews" there was this pearl:

 

the uncircumcised old geezer, Kerry

[TrentVilla]

It isn't a quote from the Daily Mail, its a quote of someone the Daily Mail (and other news outlets) are quoting, a fairly sizable difference but seemingly one you've overlooked I suspect because you haven't actually read the article.

Its a quote from a spokesman from IS and a video they've released.

Unless of course you are suggesting that it is in fake a hoax created by the West to inspire the murder of their citizens for some utterly bizarre hidden agenda that only you are aware of.

Not everything in this world is some dark conspiracy of the state, sometimes there are just nutters in the world and IS are a pretty extreme example of that.

So how about that quote? Yeah, thanks but I think I will pay more interest to the quote of a contemporary and seemingly a member of IS than someone who died nearly 30 years ago.

[CarewsEyebrowDesigner]

I find myself in the uncomfortable position of agreeing with Tony Blair.

 

If we (da West) want to defeat ISIS, we need to engage them on the ground. Air strikes won't cut it.

 

The rest of what he said (all that spectrum and fringe stuff) is for the academics to consider before drawing up ineffectual policies.

[DanishVillan]

It isn't a quote from the Daily Mail, its a quote of someone the Daily Mail (and other news outlets) are quoting, a fairly sizable difference but seemingly one you've overlooked I suspect because you haven't actually read the article.

Its a quote from a spokesman from IS and a video they've released.

Unless of course you are suggesting that it is in fake a hoax created by the West to inspire the murder of their citizens for some utterly bizarre hidden agenda that only you are aware of.

Not everything in this world is some dark conspiracy of the state, sometimes there are just nutters in the world and IS are a pretty extreme example of that.

So how about that quote? Yeah, thanks but I think I will pay more interest to the quote of a contemporary and seemingly a member of IS than someone who died nearly 30 years ago.

Please give me a logical answer to my question on the Iraqi soldiers leaving weapons and then laugh and point.

30.000 soldiers running from 800 Isis after 3 days of sporadic fighting at Mosul leaving loads of weaponry behind.

They would surely also be accompagnied by some western advisors.

I am not asking for sofisticated booby trapping, but blow the shit up.

Both duty and survival instincts should kick in.

[maqroll]

Somewhat OT, but 3 Afghan army officers being trained on a Cape Cod army base walked off the base Saturday night and haven't been seen since...considering the number of incidents where Afghan soldiers have betrayed their American and British "partners", this is somewhat worrying, but it's being pretty much buried in US news for some reason. 

[Awol]

It isn't a quote from the Daily Mail, its a quote of someone the Daily Mail (and other news outlets) are quoting, a fairly sizable difference but seemingly one you've overlooked I suspect because you haven't actually read the article.

Its a quote from a spokesman from IS and a video they've released.

Unless of course you are suggesting that it is in fake a hoax created by the West to inspire the murder of their citizens for some utterly bizarre hidden agenda that only you are aware of.

Not everything in this world is some dark conspiracy of the state, sometimes there are just nutters in the world and IS are a pretty extreme example of that.

So how about that quote? Yeah, thanks but I think I will pay more interest to the quote of a contemporary and seemingly a member of IS than someone who died nearly 30 years ago.

Please give me a logical answer to my question on the Iraqi soldiers leaving weapons and then laugh and point.

30.000 soldiers running from 800 Isis after 3 days of sporadic fighting at Mosul leaving loads of weaponry behind.

They would surely also be accompagnied by some western advisors.

I am not asking for sofisticated booby trapping, but blow the shit up.

Both duty and survival instincts should kick in.

The senior officers leading those divisions that broke and ran in the north had been in talks with the then ISIS for a long time. They ordered their troops (mainly Shia conscripts with no inclination to fight and die protecting Sunni areas) to down tools and run, so in the main they gladly did exactly that - with the survival instinct you reference in full swing. As for duty, you are clearly not familiar with middle eastern conscripts who are treated in the main with utter contempt by their officers.

Retreat engenders fear and panic amongst ill trained and inexperienced troops, most didn't stop running until they hit the lines of Shia militias around Baghdad. Their former commanders are now the military brains behind IS, having accomplished their objective of overtaking the north.

Why? The Maliki government was explicitly sectarian, favoring Shia and persecuting Sunnis, like Saddam but in reverse. IS offered them a route back to the power they once enjoyed and they've grabbed it with both hands. This isn't some tinpot terrorist outfit, these people are out to create and rule a country and they are smart, tough, ambitious and utterly ruthless.

[TrentVilla]

 

It isn't a quote from the Daily Mail, its a quote of someone the Daily Mail (and other news outlets) are quoting, a fairly sizable difference but seemingly one you've overlooked I suspect because you haven't actually read the article.

Its a quote from a spokesman from IS and a video they've released.

Unless of course you are suggesting that it is in fake a hoax created by the West to inspire the murder of their citizens for some utterly bizarre hidden agenda that only you are aware of.

Not everything in this world is some dark conspiracy of the state, sometimes there are just nutters in the world and IS are a pretty extreme example of that.

So how about that quote? Yeah, thanks but I think I will pay more interest to the quote of a contemporary and seemingly a member of IS than someone who died nearly 30 years ago.

Please give me a logical answer to my question on the Iraqi soldiers leaving weapons and then laugh and point.

30.000 soldiers running from 800 Isis after 3 days of sporadic fighting at Mosul leaving loads of weaponry behind.

They would surely also be accompagnied by some western advisors.

I am not asking for sofisticated booby trapping, but blow the shit up.

Both duty and survival instincts should kick in.

 

 

I'm struggling to understand who your question about the actions of the Iraqi army is in any way linked to the question regarding a potential threat posed by ISIS to the West. The two things aren't linked in any way I see.

 

So before I answer that, do you now accept that quote I provided is likely to be genuine? And that it is a stated instruction of ISIS rather than an opinion based on a quote from the Mail? If so do you accept that the is at some level a threat or potential threat to the West posed by ISIS? 

 

I ask because you seem to be wanting to just brush that under the carpet and return to a previous question you asked on a different topic, a question which also seemed more rhetorical than an actual question.

 

But in answer, I don't know and I'm not quite sure about the numbers you quote to be honest AWOL and Ads are probably in a far better position to answer than I am. But from my perspective I'd imagine the main reasons they deserted were a combination of fear and the desertion of their command.

 

Should they have destroyed what they left behind? Again, others are better placed to comment but yes I'd imagine they should. But I'm not sure that them leaving their positions and their weapons is somehow evidence that they were complicit in some huge conspiracy theory of the West in order to arm ISIS indirectly.