The Arab Spring and "the War on Terror"

[Glarmorgan]

BTW - Blood thirsty Israel accepted the truce, as offered by the Egyptians. Despite running no offensive actions since this morning - the Hammas keeps "defending its citizens" by launching rockets towards Israeli cities.

[Glarmorgan]

 

If Israel waned to obliterate Gaza - Israel has the ability to do so. You know that as well as I know that.

There are more ways to 'obliterate' somewhere than to lay waste to it overnight.

I don't think that it is a serious option to wipe out Gaza in one fell swoop so the use of this kind of comment as an indicator that somehow Israel is being merciful in its actions or holding back through a duty of care to civilians in Gaza is pretty much the nonsense mainstay of one line of the Israeli PR machine (it doesn't really stand well with the 'they lost' and the 'you hit the boy with the sub machine gun and you are surprised when he guns down your family' attitude).

 

 

Never talked about mercy. I talked about interests. Israel has no claims in Gaza. Even the religious-historic claim for "Grand Judea" and Israel has nothing to achieve by killing civilians or conquering Gaza. Since the last operation (November 2002) the Hammas did not attack Israel. Israel, in return, did not attack Hammas.

 

And what can one do - wars are "won". GBR won WWII, USA won their war with Spain. Russia won its war with Georgia. That's war. Israel did not start the 1948 war.

[snowychap]

Never talked about mercy. I talked about interests.

Fine, I read in to it something that wasn't there.

I'm glad that you appear to have put me straight in that Israel will do the precise amount of damage to whomever and do as much as it thinks it can get away with (in this specific case Gaza but the attitude is the same with respects to the West Bank) in order to maximize the chances of achieving what it views are its interests. The only brake, then, on Israel killing people in Gaza, building a huge sodding wall, building further illegal settlements, and so on would appear to be its practical ability or willingness to deal with the international response.

[peterms]

As in previous slaughters, Israel is activating its network of online trolls and astroturfers to try to defend its actions. An example here.

"Israel student union sets up “war room” to sell Gaza massacre on Facebook..."

[Glarmorgan]

 

Never talked about mercy. I talked about interests.

Fine, I read in to it something that wasn't there.

I'm glad that you appear to have put me straight in that Israel will do the precise amount of damage to whomever and do as much as it thinks it can get away with (in this specific case Gaza but the attitude is the same with respects to the West Bank) in order to maximize the chances of achieving what it views are its interests. The only brake, then, on Israel killing people in Gaza, building a huge sodding wall, building further illegal settlements, and so on would appear to be its practical ability or willingness to deal with the international response.

 

 

The basic interest of Israel is to defend its citizens. Suicide bombings, if you remember, were a usual incident here. Every week or so someone went on a bus or into a restaurant and blew himself up, alongside many civilians.The wall in the west bank reduced suicide bombings to zero. I think that is quite alright.

 

Israel's interests are not the destruction of Gaza or the Palestinian Authority. I do think there is a difference between Gaza and the West Bank when it comes to Israel's interests. There is an internal dispute regarding the settlements. I, as I wrote to AWOL, oppose the settlements in the west bank. But the internal dispute vanishes when it comes to Gaza as from most Israelis point of view - There is not much more we can "give" Gaza to try and bring the peace and quiet. You can not even blame Israel for the "siege" as there is a border with Egypt. While it seems that final goal of Abu Mazen in the west bank is to reach an agreement, the goal of Hammas is to harass Israel, no matter what are the costs. Even now, after Israel acceptance of the truce - they keep firing, hoping for Israel to retaliate.

As in previous slaughters, Israel is activating its network of online trolls and astroturfers to try to defend its actions. An example here.

"Israel student union sets up “war room” to sell Gaza massacre on Facebook..."

 

And that is a problem because...?

[Swerbs]

The Israeli government is not interested in peace anymore than Hamas. The people I'm sure do but the government is only after one thing, land. 

[MakemineVanilla]

[Awol]

The answer is simple, end the occupation. If Palestinians continue to attack Israel after that then pound them to dust.

I accept, but as I said - there is no occupation in Gaza. They have an Israeli-Free borderline with Egypt which is usually closed due to the hatred between the secular regime in Egypt and the Islamic lunatics of Hammas.

I'm no supporter of Hammas and their refusal to recognise Israel's right to exist is clearly a problem, but from your side of the fence it's not an existential one.

In my view it's also impossible to de-link and treat the situations in Gaza and the West Bank as two separate issues. Right or wrong this is now the territory of Arab Muslims with the same natural rights to the land as the longest established Jews.

By ending the occupation Israel would remove the last shred of legitimacy Hammas and others can claim for their campaign against you. Further aggressive action by them could then be met with overwhelming force and the international community couldn't say a damn thing about it.

The problem, as you seem to accept, is the occupation itself which is nothing more than a dressed up land grab and the stripping of natural rights from decent ordinary people. As long as that situation continues it will generate hate and resentment that makes perpetual conflict inevitable.

Take it from people with some experience that stealing other peoples countries doesn't end well. Israelis are highly civilised people, you know this.

I fully agree with the general idea. Benjamin Netanyahu is hardly mt favorite prime minister and I did not vote for him of for any of the other parties currently in the coalition. I reject any idea of annexation or continuous control over the Palestinians. From my point of view, leave human rights aside for a moment, its in Israel best interest to draw a borderline and let them live their lives. This is how I see things.

Still, and from your responses I know you are a bit familiar with what's going on here - the situation is much more complicated than this, as the Palestinians themselves are finding all sorts for excuses for not making any progress in the peace process. They keep insisting on a partial right of return and so on. In addition, the gap between Hammas and Fatah is huge. That is why there are no real relationship between the West Bank and Gaza. Both act as independent entities and as it seems, the Fatah is quite pleased to see Hammas on its knees. In order for Israel to negotiate with one representing body - the Palestinians should unite around such a body. As long as this does not happen - what can Israel do? Force the Hammas to recognize our right to exist?

There is no "complete good" vs. "complete evil" here. There is no "if only we'll give them what they want peace will come".

I'm sorry but the well documented illegal settlement programme in the West Bank, contrary to all international law, cannot be reasonably described as anything but annexation.

I am aware of the differences between Fatah and Hammas, and the purge of the former carried out by the latter in Gaza some years ago. But times they are a changing and Hammas is shit out of friends. The regime in Egypt will throw them to the wolves as long as the west overlooks the reimposition of military rule; the supply routes through Sudan are thoroughly compromised - not least by direct IDF intervention when necessary; the Jordanians are firmly onside and watching their own backs right now; Assad is up to his neck in trouble and the Iranians have their near abroad to worry about in Iraq as Jihadistan gets established by ISIS.

The point is that regional borders are already changing and two of your notional enemies in Iraq and Syria are gone and not coming back. New threats will emerge for sure, but this is a golden opportunity to go for a final settlement by withdrawing completely from the occupied West Bank. As part of that process I reckon we could get you into NATO to guarantee the '67 borders and thus the State of Israel. Forever.

The old thinking doesn't reflect the new reality that is being shaped right now. It would be a tragedy to let that opportunity pass, IMHO.

EDIT: just realised the first part of my post was arguing a point you'd already conceded. Apologies and withdrawn.

First - there are fears here regarding our Eastern border due to the huge progress made by ISIS. One of the main reasons for Israel to keep hold on the Jordanian border is to block any option for an open corridor from Iran and Iraq to the center of Israel. If ISIS will turn their attention towards Jordan (and this is a thing the Jordanians fear as well) - you can never expect how things will go on.

So I agree - there is no immediate threat from any of our neighbors in terms of Army vs. Army. Still, groups such as ISIS or those Muslim loonies in Syria are not operating so far away and as soon as they'll end their dealing with their Muslim counterparts, they will most probably turn their attention towards Israel. This is not something you can consider as far fetched.

I am not the one to automatically approve everything the Israeli government does. My past comments will back this claim up (not including the pics I've uploaded to the NSFW thread...) - but it is too often when I find it hard, as an Israeli, to try and see where the Palestinian leadership wish to take this. They hold the negotiations with a "you should give us everything we want or else we take nothing" approach which isn't working too well for them. I don't expect a peace loving neighbor who will immediately ignore all past occurrences (and this works for the Israelis as well) - but I do hope the Palestinians will at least try to cope with some of the issues Israel brought up. For instance - why the hell are they oppose to officially recognize Israel as a Jewish state? What's in it for them? Such thing makes you wonder - maybe they see the Palestinian state as a step towards the 1948 lines? I don't say that's why they want - I say that I, as an Israeli, find it hard to come up with a different option for this.

First the ISIS thing: they are a relatively small bunch of psychos who are the tip of a much deeper Sunni spear that represents a tribal rising against the Shia authorities in Baghdad and Damascus. While ISIS may have broader territorial ambitions ( and fantasise about Jerusalem) we both know they've got more chance of seeing Bob Marley live in concert next Friday.

The Shia and Sunni are going to fight it out in Iraq and the Levant until they are exhausted and do not pose an existential threat to Israel, or to Jordan for that matter.

Yes AQ "whatever" may infiltrate a free West Bank in small numbers but with massive international support to Fatah they could deal with that.

The second point is why get so hung up on what the Palestinian leadership want or say? If Israel dealt with its Zionist constituency and just said "we're leaving the West Bank, that's it", what could the Zionists, Palestinians or anyone else do about it? You don't need anyone else's consent, it's within the power of Israel alone to make that decision.

The reality, IMO, is that the Israeli State doesn't want to leave the West Bank and will, by a thousand cuts, make an future Palestinian State non-viable by salami slicing it to pieces. After all what's a few decades when the Jewish people have waited so long for what is 'rightfully theirs'?

[Glarmorgan]

The Israeli government is not interested in peace anymore than Hamas. The people I'm sure do but the government is only after one thing, land. 

 

You should read the Charter of the Hammas before bringing up such claims.

[peterms]

The Arabs who stayed put are currently citizens of the Israeli state, enjoying this democracy, being a part of the parliament, enjoying all the rights the non-Muslim citizens do.

Is this what they teach Israeli kids in school?

The Arabs have been thrown off their own land, had their homes stolen, and the state has been complicit in this. They are prevented from farming their remaining land by blocks and barriers enforced by armed forces who shoot to kill at the slightest excuse. Their water is taken to serve the illegal settlements, all with the active encouragement of both the government of Israel and the great majority of Israelis.

Israel is the aggressor, the thief, the intruder. I find it incomprehensible that with the Nazi aggression still in living memory, so many Israelis should not only copy their approach and attitudes, but pretend to be shocked and puzzled that people should find this wholly unacceptable.

[AVFCforever1991]

As in previous slaughters, Israel is activating its network of online trolls and astroturfers to try to defend its actions. An example here.

"Israel student union sets up “war room” to sell Gaza massacre on Facebook..."

 

I'm on another forum, discussing this topic and the Israeli on that site seems to be very aggressive in his defence of Israeli aggression. Do they all read of a script or something?  

[Glarmorgan]

 

 

 

 

 

 

The answer is simple, end the occupation. If Palestinians continue to attack Israel after that then pound them to dust.

I accept, but as I said - there is no occupation in Gaza. They have an Israeli-Free borderline with Egypt which is usually closed due to the hatred between the secular regime in Egypt and the Islamic lunatics of Hammas.

I'm no supporter of Hammas and their refusal to recognise Israel's right to exist is clearly a problem, but from your side of the fence it's not an existential one.

In my view it's also impossible to de-link and treat the situations in Gaza and the West Bank as two separate issues. Right or wrong this is now the territory of Arab Muslims with the same natural rights to the land as the longest established Jews.

By ending the occupation Israel would remove the last shred of legitimacy Hammas and others can claim for their campaign against you. Further aggressive action by them could then be met with overwhelming force and the international community couldn't say a damn thing about it.

The problem, as you seem to accept, is the occupation itself which is nothing more than a dressed up land grab and the stripping of natural rights from decent ordinary people. As long as that situation continues it will generate hate and resentment that makes perpetual conflict inevitable.

Take it from people with some experience that stealing other peoples countries doesn't end well. Israelis are highly civilised people, you know this.

I fully agree with the general idea. Benjamin Netanyahu is hardly mt favorite prime minister and I did not vote for him of for any of the other parties currently in the coalition. I reject any idea of annexation or continuous control over the Palestinians. From my point of view, leave human rights aside for a moment, its in Israel best interest to draw a borderline and let them live their lives. This is how I see things.

Still, and from your responses I know you are a bit familiar with what's going on here - the situation is much more complicated than this, as the Palestinians themselves are finding all sorts for excuses for not making any progress in the peace process. They keep insisting on a partial right of return and so on. In addition, the gap between Hammas and Fatah is huge. That is why there are no real relationship between the West Bank and Gaza. Both act as independent entities and as it seems, the Fatah is quite pleased to see Hammas on its knees. In order for Israel to negotiate with one representing body - the Palestinians should unite around such a body. As long as this does not happen - what can Israel do? Force the Hammas to recognize our right to exist?

There is no "complete good" vs. "complete evil" here. There is no "if only we'll give them what they want peace will come".

I'm sorry but the well documented illegal settlement programme in the West Bank, contrary to all international law, cannot be reasonably described as anything but annexation.

I am aware of the differences between Fatah and Hammas, and the purge of the former carried out by the latter in Gaza some years ago. But times they are a changing and Hammas is shit out of friends. The regime in Egypt will throw them to the wolves as long as the west overlooks the reimposition of military rule; the supply routes through Sudan are thoroughly compromised - not least by direct IDF intervention when necessary; the Jordanians are firmly onside and watching their own backs right now; Assad is up to his neck in trouble and the Iranians have their near abroad to worry about in Iraq as Jihadistan gets established by ISIS.

The point is that regional borders are already changing and two of your notional enemies in Iraq and Syria are gone and not coming back. New threats will emerge for sure, but this is a golden opportunity to go for a final settlement by withdrawing completely from the occupied West Bank. As part of that process I reckon we could get you into NATO to guarantee the '67 borders and thus the State of Israel. Forever.

The old thinking doesn't reflect the new reality that is being shaped right now. It would be a tragedy to let that opportunity pass, IMHO.

EDIT: just realised the first part of my post was arguing a point you'd already conceded. Apologies and withdrawn.

First - there are fears here regarding our Eastern border due to the huge progress made by ISIS. One of the main reasons for Israel to keep hold on the Jordanian border is to block any option for an open corridor from Iran and Iraq to the center of Israel. If ISIS will turn their attention towards Jordan (and this is a thing the Jordanians fear as well) - you can never expect how things will go on.

So I agree - there is no immediate threat from any of our neighbors in terms of Army vs. Army. Still, groups such as ISIS or those Muslim loonies in Syria are not operating so far away and as soon as they'll end their dealing with their Muslim counterparts, they will most probably turn their attention towards Israel. This is not something you can consider as far fetched.

I am not the one to automatically approve everything the Israeli government does. My past comments will back this claim up (not including the pics I've uploaded to the NSFW thread...) - but it is too often when I find it hard, as an Israeli, to try and see where the Palestinian leadership wish to take this. They hold the negotiations with a "you should give us everything we want or else we take nothing" approach which isn't working too well for them. I don't expect a peace loving neighbor who will immediately ignore all past occurrences (and this works for the Israelis as well) - but I do hope the Palestinians will at least try to cope with some of the issues Israel brought up. For instance - why the hell are they oppose to officially recognize Israel as a Jewish state? What's in it for them? Such thing makes you wonder - maybe they see the Palestinian state as a step towards the 1948 lines? I don't say that's why they want - I say that I, as an Israeli, find it hard to come up with a different option for this.

First the ISIS thing: they are a relatively small bunch of psychos who are the tip of a much deeper Sunni spear that represents a tribal rising against the Shia authorities in Baghdad and Damascus. While ISIS may have broader territorial ambitions ( and fantasise about Jerusalem) we both know they've got more chance of seeing Bob Marley live in concert next Friday.

The Shia and Sunni are going to fight it out in Iraq and the Levant until they are exhausted and do not pose an existential threat to Israel, or to Jordan for that matter.

Yes AQ "whatever" may infiltrate a free West Bank in small numbers but with massive international support to Fatah they could deal with that.

The second point is why get so hung up on what the Palestinian leadership want or say? If Israel dealt with its Zionist constituency and just said "we're leaving the West Bank, that's it", what could the Zionists, Palestinians or anyone else do about it? You don't need anyone else's consent, it's within the power of Israel alone to make that decision.

The reality, IMO, is that the Israeli State doesn't want to leave the West Bank and will, by a thousand cuts, make an future Palestinian State non-viable by salami slicing it to pieces. After all what's a few decades when the Jewish people have waited so long for what is 'rightfully theirs'?

 

 

ISIS are not too big, but things are going crazy here at the moment, with Syria and Iraq falling apart, while Iran continue to support the Hizbulla. 

 

For the second issue.  Your last sentence is inaccurate, as there are different approaches within Israel. Benjamin Netanyahu and Shimon Peres are not the same. Regarding the "let's leave the west bank and that's that" - I wrote earlier. Leave the religious thing aside - the same argument rises whenever this issue comes into discussion - we've tried it in Gaza and look where that brought us. 

 

As in previous slaughters, Israel is activating its network of online trolls and astroturfers to try to defend its actions. An example here.

"Israel student union sets up “war room” to sell Gaza massacre on Facebook..."

 

I'm on another forum, discussing this topic and the Israeli on that site seems to be very aggressive in his defence of Israeli aggression. Do they all read of a script or something?  

 

I have no ideas what guidelines they were given...

[Glarmorgan]

 

The Arabs who stayed put are currently citizens of the Israeli state, enjoying this democracy, being a part of the parliament, enjoying all the rights the non-Muslim citizens do.

Is this what they teach Israeli kids in school?

The Arabs have been thrown off their own land, had their homes stolen, and the state has been complicit in this. They are prevented from farming their remaining land by blocks and barriers enforced by armed forces who shoot to kill at the slightest excuse. Their water is taken to serve the illegal settlements, all with the active encouragement of both the government of Israel and the great majority of Israelis.

Israel is the aggressor, the thief, the intruder. I find it incomprehensible that with the Nazi aggression still in living memory, so many Israelis should not only copy their approach and attitudes, but pretend to be shocked and puzzled that people should find this wholly unacceptable.

 

 

What are you referring to? That Arabs within the borders of Israel are full citizens of the state. That's what I said. 

Also - you keep talking about "shoot to kill", but the numbers don't add up. 27 deaths in 2013 in the West Bank is far from "Shoot to kill". I was there, I served there, shoot to kill?! Can you please try to look into things and not just repeating unfounded mantras?

 

Comparing Israel to the Nazis is preposterous. Or maybe not? Give me a couple of minutes, I'll try to locate the killing pits with the bodies. Maybe I'll find some to support your claim.

[Glarmorgan]

 

 

http://www.jewishpress.com/news/breaking-news/holland-not-with-our-money-slash-funds-to-pa/2014/07/15/

 

 

 

Holland’s  Tweede Kamer, referred to as the House of Representatives, but a better translation is “second chamber,” approved a motion to stop the transfer of money it donates to the Palestinian Authority to terrorists in Israeli prisons. All 148 members voting of the 150 members of the chamber voted in favor of the motion.

[snowychap]

The basic interest of Israel is to defend its citizens. Suicide bombings, if you remember, were a usual incident here. Every week or so someone went on a bus or into a restaurant and blew himself up, alongside many civilians.The wall in the west bank reduced suicide bombings to zero. I think that is quite alright.

I'm not surprised that you think 'it's alright' - I'm not so sure of the 'facts' that help you towards this conclusion - but I think the argument that 'security' trumps everything (whether that be international law or whatever else) is very poor and just reinforces the post I made earlier (any actions that it can get away with, the Israeli state will pursue).

Israel's interests are not the destruction of Gaza or the Palestinian Authority. I do think there is a difference between Gaza and the West Bank when it comes to Israel's interests. There is an internal dispute regarding the settlements. I, as I wrote to AWOL, oppose the settlements in the west bank. But the internal dispute vanishes when it comes to Gaza as from most Israelis point of view - There is not much more we can "give" Gaza to try and bring the peace and quiet. You can not even blame Israel for the "siege" as there is a border with Egypt. While it seems that final goal of Abu Mazen in the west bank is to reach an agreement, the goal of Hammas is to harass Israel, no matter what are the costs. Even now, after Israel acceptance of the truce - they keep firing, hoping for Israel to retaliate.

It's a futile exercise to discuss Israel's actions with you when you are willing to defend anything which you believe defensible but want us to ignore or set aside as a completely separate thing policy or actions elsewhere.

I think I'll leave it to others, thanks.

[chrisp65]

 

As in previous slaughters, Israel is activating its network of online trolls and astroturfers to try to defend its actions. An example here.

"Israel student union sets up “war room” to sell Gaza massacre on Facebook..."

 

I'm on another forum, discussing this topic and the Israeli on that site seems to be very aggressive in his defence of Israeli aggression. Do they all read of a script or something?  

 

 

I mentioned this a couple of days ago. 

 

Even the wording used is similar, it's really odd. If I was the paranoid type I'd think it was orchestrated, it can't be, there surely isn't any possible merit in planting people on football forums and the like.

 

But without meaning any disrespect to Glar, you can predict when he's going to appear, and now it appears you can even predict what phrases are going to be used on what day of the 'campaign'.

 

I did wonder if it was simply a case of hearing a catchy phrase on the TV or reading it in the paper and all individually chose to run with it. I'm pretty sure that's what it must be. It was the tosh about tourist hotels where it became really weird. Different forums or platforms suddenly all appeared to have one representative suggesting Hammas should invest in tourism. Then it went away again.

[Glarmorgan]

 

 

As in previous slaughters, Israel is activating its network of online trolls and astroturfers to try to defend its actions. An example here.

"Israel student union sets up “war room” to sell Gaza massacre on Facebook..."

 

I'm on another forum, discussing this topic and the Israeli on that site seems to be very aggressive in his defence of Israeli aggression. Do they all read of a script or something?  

 

 

I mentioned this a couple of days ago. 

 

Even the wording used is similar, it's really odd. If I was the paranoid type I'd think it was orchestrated, it can't be, there surely isn't any possible merit in planting people on football forums and the like.

 

But without meaning any disrespect to Glar, you can predict when he's going to appear, and now it appears you can even predict what phrases are going to be used on what day of the 'campaign'.

 

I did wonder if it was simply a case of hearing a catchy phrase on the TV or reading it in the paper and all individually chose to run with it. I'm pretty sure that's what it must be. It was the tosh about tourist hotels where it became really weird. Different forums or platforms suddenly all appeared to have one representative suggesting Hammas should invest in tourism. Then it went away again.

 

 

I think that the 615 posts I have in this forum ensures I am an Israeli Villa fan up and foremost.

 

I knew what I was getting into when I started writing in this thread, but, quite frankly - I can say the same - as the Israeli "official" representatives keep repeating the same things - I run into the same issue with most of the replies here. That's quite alright - but still...

[Glarmorgan]

 

The basic interest of Israel is to defend its citizens. Suicide bombings, if you remember, were a usual incident here. Every week or so someone went on a bus or into a restaurant and blew himself up, alongside many civilians.The wall in the west bank reduced suicide bombings to zero. I think that is quite alright.

I'm not surprised that you think 'it's alright' - I'm not so sure of the 'facts' that help you towards this conclusion - but I think the argument that 'security' trumps everything (whether that be international law or whatever else) is very poor and just reinforces the post I made earlier (any actions that it can get away with, the Israeli state will pursue).

Israel's interests are not the destruction of Gaza or the Palestinian Authority. I do think there is a difference between Gaza and the West Bank when it comes to Israel's interests. There is an internal dispute regarding the settlements. I, as I wrote to AWOL, oppose the settlements in the west bank. But the internal dispute vanishes when it comes to Gaza as from most Israelis point of view - There is not much more we can "give" Gaza to try and bring the peace and quiet. You can not even blame Israel for the "siege" as there is a border with Egypt. While it seems that final goal of Abu Mazen in the west bank is to reach an agreement, the goal of Hammas is to harass Israel, no matter what are the costs. Even now, after Israel acceptance of the truce - they keep firing, hoping for Israel to retaliate.

It's a futile exercise to discuss Israel's actions with you when you are willing to defend anything which you believe defensible but want us to ignore or set aside as a completely separate thing policy or actions elsewhere.

I think I'll leave it to others, thanks.

 

 

All I try is to share thoughts and feelings from our side of the map. You keep drawing the "Palestinian problem" as you see fit, but your perception is inaccurate. Not according to my standards - according to Abu Mazen's! Even he calls for a cease fire from both parties and the Hammas ignores him. It ignores him since they do not consider themselves as one.

[chrisp65]

Glar,

 

But it is genuinely good to talk, so stick with it.

 

Our only vaguely similar experience would have been 'the troubles' as they are so gently described. It's a lot easier to take a pacifist or political stance when it's not 'you'. All of us from all over the world on VT have to remember we are getting our news and 'facts' via other people's filters and so there is no one truth. We have to be grown up and understand there isn't one definitive truth that if the others would just be honest and accept then this would go away.

 

So talking, any talking, any exposure to the views of others has to help a little bit. This is why keeping a massive pool of uneducated uninformed fodder in poverty currently suits both sides. they are so easily persuaded that one more sniper bullet or rocket might tip this to a win for the red team or blue team.

 

The problem for us sat here all comfy in the UK, with no buses or pubs being blown up for quite some time now, is that both sides are so clearly wrong and lead by bad bloodthirsty people. It's difficult to understand how after all this time and after all this history both sides still cling to the hope that if they could just murder a few more enemy families then that might lead to a 'win'. It's horrific and it's pathetic and it's out of our control.

 

I know one thing, when you see the shit that arab mums, dads and kids are having to put up with, can you begrudge them trying to get out and get to Italy or Malta. Could you turn back a moslem family trying to escape their shade of hell from their part of the map? Be it Israeli murder, faction murder, gang murder. It's all a bit of a hell hole and Israel isn't helping, it's joining in for its own profit and gain.

[MakemineVanilla]

 

The Arabs who stayed put are currently citizens of the Israeli state, enjoying this democracy, being a part of the parliament, enjoying all the rights the non-Muslim citizens do.

Is this what they teach Israeli kids in school?

The Arabs have been thrown off their own land, had their homes stolen, and the state has been complicit in this. They are prevented from farming their remaining land by blocks and barriers enforced by armed forces who shoot to kill at the slightest excuse. Their water is taken to serve the illegal settlements, all with the active encouragement of both the government of Israel and the great majority of Israelis.

Israel is the aggressor, the thief, the intruder. I find it incomprehensible that with the Nazi aggression still in living memory, so many Israelis should not only copy their approach and attitudes, but pretend to be shocked and puzzled that people should find this wholly unacceptable.

 

 

I think the comparison with the Nazis is just too intemperate and hyperbolic.

 

I can see how people would see the parallels between German expansion to gain Lebensraum and populating it with their own ethno/religious people of choice. And stealing farmland looks rather too similar to Arynisation to be ignored, but I think the atrocities of Nazism are just too extreme to carry the comparison any further.

 

I think a comparison with 19th Century colonialists and especially Americans is probably nearer the mark.

 

There definitely seems to be a sense that the whole Israeli project is based on the notion of terra nullius.

 

Certainly the parallels between Andrew Jackson's Indian Removal Act of 1830 (The Trail of Tears), comes the closest, especially when Israelis start talking about land swaps.