steve-67 Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 Another thought. If England DO go out in the first round, I'd guess that Capello will go. What are the odds that we start hearing that MON is off after all? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted June 19, 2010 Moderator Share Posted June 19, 2010 Trent, those same players have played 4-4-2 over two years of qualifying so that ain't going to wash, people may say Andorra but we scored 9 past Croatia who I'd say are better than Algeria, they are full internationals and this blaming the tactics is a kop out! The only thing I'd say Capello got wrong is not taking some of these overpaid players like Lampard and make him sit on the sidelines! You are entitled to your opinion obviously but I'm equally entitled to mine. At that time we had Beckham which made a huge difference to our balance in midfield, we had Rooney on form, we had Ferdinand, we had Terry on form. Just because the results were better then than they are now doesn't mean that the way he was using Gerrard and Lampard worked. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maradona10 Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 Beckham hardly played, all I am saying we cannot say the players are not used to the formation when they clearly are! They also have training sessions to work on things but as you said our opinions differ! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted June 19, 2010 Moderator Share Posted June 19, 2010 We've tried Lampard in his club position in the past, nothing. Same with Gerrard, same with Rooney. When has Gerrard ever played off a striker like he does off Torres for England? Its certainly never happened under Capello. When has Lampard ever been given a free role with two holding central midfielders for England like he is at Chelsea? Come on Jez when did that happen? Change the tactics play to everyones strengths, it wont change a thing, we've tried in the past and nothing happened. So what is your answer Jez? Stop going to World Cup's because you think the players don't think its worth it? I'll ask again seeing as you didn't answer, what is your reasoning for that conclusion??? Or perhaps shut the papers down because they put too much pressure on the players? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted June 19, 2010 Moderator Share Posted June 19, 2010 Beckham hardly played, all I am saying we cannot say the players are not used to the formation when they clearly are! They also have training sessions to work on things but as you said our opinions differ! I didn't say the players weren't used to the formation, I don't think I've said that once mate. What I've said is that the formation doesn't suit the players he has available. It doesn't suit picking Gerrard and Lampard. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The_Rev Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 How shit have England been since Euro 96? We have been **** awful. France 98 - Made it through the group in second place, lost in the first knockout round (Argentina on penalties) Euro 2000 - Eliminated in the group phase, 3 points from 3 games. Japan/Korea 2002 - Made it through the group in second place, beat Denmark in the first knockout round, lost to Brazil in the quarter finals. Euro 2004 - Made it through the group in second place, lost the first knockout game (Portugal on penalties) Germany 2006 - Won our group (!), beat the mighty Equador 1-0 in the first knockout round. Lost to Portugal on penalties in the quarter finals. Euro 2008 - Failed to qualify. South Africa 2010 - 2 points from the opening two games. So much for this "golden generation" bullshit we are being fed. If the current generation of players go back as far as France 98 (I dont think there are any still active from Euro 96 are they?) then the England team are **** embarrassingly bad. We have won one group phase in six tournaments, we have won two knockout games in six tournaments. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maradona10 Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 Strange when they've played the same formation before! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted June 19, 2010 Moderator Share Posted June 19, 2010 Strange when they've played the same formation before! As I've already said, it worked in qualification because we had Rooney, Terry, Ferdinand, Beckham fit and on form we don't have these things now for a variety of reasons. We are now largelly dependant (more so than in qualification) on Gerrard and Lampard and the 442 formation and their roles in it in the last two games haven't got the best out of them. I don't think 442 got the best out them throughout qualification but it wasn't so much of a problem due to the form of the likes of Rooney. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jez Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 We've tried Lampard in his club position in the past, nothing. Same with Gerrard, same with Rooney. When has Gerrard ever played off a striker like he does off Torres for England? Its certainly never happened under Capello. When has Lampard ever been given a free role with two holding central midfielders for England like he is at Chelsea? Come on Jez when did that happen? Change the tactics play to everyones strengths, it wont change a thing, we've tried in the past and nothing happened. So what is your answer Jez? Stop going to World Cup's because you think the players don't think its worth it? I'll ask again seeing as you didn't answer, what is your reasoning for that conclusion??? Or perhaps shut the papers down because they put too much pressure on the players? Come on i cannot remember the exact games, but they have all played in their positions and we are still average. Its just a difference of opinion you say tactics, yet for so long we have been shit look what Rev has pointed out. So its always the manager, always the tactics. Blumin ek we are very unlucky. Various managers same dire shit. Perhaps its actually something else? That is my reasoning. I've moaned about England managers time after time, nothing changes new managers come in fresh exciting, always results in the same thing. So i've come to the conclusion it has to be something else. Difference of opinion Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theboyangel Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 I don't think the players (or some of them) want to play 442 - Lampard feels restricted in the centre because Stevie Meeee keeps cutting into the middle when he should be on the left. Rooney should be playing off Heskey (who to be fair, has done his job well for the team) feeding off the inevitable flick-ons but he resorted to ambling around the pitch and coming in deep - again clogging up that space. Lennon is all speed but looked frightened of taking their left back on - the reason he's there is to get to the byline and cross the ball - never attempted or succeeded once last night. Barry was the only midfielder to do their job last night -mop up and distribute. I think Heskey (wrongly as he's performed) will be dropped for the next game, with Gerrard and Rooney getting their own way and playing together up front - I noticed that they would only pass to each other last night..... not very good for a 'team' game! I'd love to see Lampard dropped to the bench - stick Carrick or Milner in the middle alongside Barry and they'll be happy adding support to the attack or defence. Add Joe Cole on the left to add guile instead of relying on speed or no left midfielder (in the case of Gerrard being LM!) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maradona10 Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 So your issue is with Lampard and Gerrard and not neccesarily the formation, I'd say drop Lampard, bring in Cole, put Gerrard in the middle and we'll win on Wednesday! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted June 19, 2010 Moderator Share Posted June 19, 2010 Come on i cannot remember the exact games, but they have all played in their positions and we are still average. Fair enough if you can't remember the games mate but I still dispute the notion that Lampard has ever, even once played for England in front of two holding midfielders in anything like the way he lines up for Chelsea. That just hasn't happened. Its just a difference of opinion you say tactics, yet for so long we have been shit look what Rev has pointed out. It is mate and I'm not having a go at you its nice to be able to have a good debate with you over it. Essentially we agree on a lot of the same things I think, namely the problems are deep rooted. The number of overseas' players, the number of games, the small pool of talent, the pressure. These are all factors, I agree with you that bottle is an issue too. I think all these things contribute and have done for the best part of 20 years as Rev says, I agree on all that. My main issue today though, the one we or should I say Capello could do something about is how he uses the assets at his disposal and I don't think he is getting the best from them the rest of the issues simply can't be solved between now and Wednesday. I've moaned about England managers time after time, nothing changes new managers come in fresh exciting, always results in the same thing. So i've come to the conclusion it has to be something else. Difference of opinion As I say Jez, I don't think we actually differ all that much we are just coming at this from different angles. I'm talking specificially about what is wrong now, what was wrong last night and what can be done ahead of Wednesday. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
theboyangel Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 So your issue is with Lampard and Gerrard and not neccesarily the formation, I'd say drop Lampard, bring in Cole, put Gerrard in the middle and we'll win on Wednesday! Both Lampard and Gerrard are central midfielders - however, neither have the capacity to play alongside each other either a 3 man midfield or as 2 centre midfielders in a 4-4-2. This has been evidenced for the past 5-6yrs during many qualifiers/competitions and under 3-4 different International managers. Stupidly, it appears that neither are droppable and HAVE to play, wherein lies the problem - so, someone else (usually the LM) is omitted to compensate for Gerrard and Lampard - however, this does not solve the problem as Gerrard is too indisciplined to stick to his role and Lampard does not force himself into the game. One of them has to be dropped - simple as. It would restore balance (going a little Star Wars!) to the side and also add a greater threat coming off the bench (probably a greater impact than SWP!!!) I fear that even with a 4-4-1-1 with Gerrard supporting Rooney, Lampard's game would be 'restricted' by Stevie Meeee... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted June 19, 2010 Moderator Share Posted June 19, 2010 So your issue is with Lampard and Gerrard and not neccesarily the formation, I'd say drop Lampard, bring in Cole, put Gerrard in the middle and we'll win on Wednesday! Its with the use of them certainly. If we are going to play 442 I don't think you can play both of them, in fact I'm not sure Lampard should ever play in a 442. If we are going to play 442 which is likely, I'd play Milner on the right, Cole on the left, Barry holding and Gerrard in the middle allowed to push right forward with Cole and Milner able to tuck in and cover to give him the freedom to do what he does best. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Maradona10 Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 Trent that's the team I'd play so we agree on something! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jez Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 One thing is true though they cannot win either way. Lose, play shite - Destroyed in the media. Win, play well - Well you should have, your Lampard, your Gerrard, your Rooney. Also one thing that has bugged me, picking players regardless. Gerrard has been naff this season and very lucky to be in the squad, so there! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted June 19, 2010 Moderator Share Posted June 19, 2010 Trent that's the team I'd play so we agree on something! Ha ha after all that mate we'd pick the same team or midfield anyway. I'd also drop Heskey for Crouch, oh and Carragher would never wear and England tracksuit again let alone a shirt. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Genie Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 I'd say drop Lampard, bring in Cole, put Gerrard in the middle and we'll win on Wednesday! This! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted June 19, 2010 Moderator Share Posted June 19, 2010 In fact the closes to England colours Carragher would get would be a little flag on his car. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
kiddybloke Posted June 19, 2010 Share Posted June 19, 2010 Id go: James Johnson Terry Dawson Cole Lennon Barry Lampard Cole Gerrard Rooney Seems a bit of a no brainer to me.... but what do i know? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts