tonyh29 Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 it's interesting that Cameron is trying to claim that Gadaffi's overthrow by the people of Libya is in somehow a victory for the UK I know it embarrasses you immensely that Blair and brown cosied up to Gadaffi and sold out the Pam Am victims to grab a quick buck out of Libya but your deflection attempts are still poor even by your standards Compared with Labour’s protracted, painful and highly controversial conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan Cameron’s intervention in Libya has been a triumph of foreign policy.... without the French and UK Libya would still be under the control of Gadaffi ..Simples Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Fair play to Cameron , stuck his neck out on Libya and it appears to have come off .. excellent speech outside number 10 , not gloating just statesman like ... Libya wont be a vote winner for him in the UK but it will have enhanced his and the UK's reputation around the globe Seriously? All the facts regarding the start of the conflict point towards the French government initiating the action. Cameron hardly stuck his neck out by agreeing with the French any more than condemning the French plans and actions would have been. From the start of events : Cameron took a bold gamble two weeks ago when he became the first Western leader to call unequivocally for a no-fly zone to protect anti-government rebels from the bloody reprisals undertaken by forces loyal to Colonel Muammar Gaddafi, the Libyan dictator At the time, there seemed to be little appetite for the measure elsewhere. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 it's interesting that Cameron is trying to claim that Gadaffi's overthrow by the people of Libya is in somehow a victory for the UK I know it embarrasses you immensely that Blair and brown cosied up to Gadaffi and sold out the Pam Am victims to grab a quick buck out of Libya but your deflection attempts are still poor even by your standards Compared with Labour’s protracted, painful and highly controversial conflicts in Iraq and Afghanistan Cameron’s intervention in Libya has been a triumph of foreign policy.... without the French and UK Libya would still be under the control of Gadaffi ..Simples It does not embarrass me at all Tony, and as usual nice attempt at deflection. Blair and the previous Gvmt, like the rest of the world treated Gadaffi as they had to do considering how things were happening. Interesting that you fail to see, or conveniently re-write history. Also interesting how Hague has contacted Blair on various occasions on Libya. I suppose that is cosying up to Gadaffi also? You actually sicken me with the statement re Iraq and Afghanistan, especially considering your comments previously about regime change and how you commented about acts of war. Strange how your views have changed 100% now that Cameron sits with his chums in number 10. But the Tory party have always been known for their fondness for a war to deflect attention from their idealistic attacks against the UK people. I suppose Cameron is just following the trend there Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 From the start of events : Cameron took a bold gamble two weeks ago when he became the first Western leader to call unequivocally for a no-fly zone to protect anti-government rebels from the bloody reprisals undertaken by forces loyal to Colonel Muammar Gaddafi, the Libyan dictator At the time, there seemed to be little appetite for the measure elsewhere. Scraping the barrel now Tony, along with Cameron trying to claim that the overthrow of Gadaffi was all Cameron's doing. The actions of Nato were a joint decision, you make it out as though Cameron was some sort of super-hero and that the rest of Nato followed. Unlike the HOC where his Flashman antics and bullying are the norm, the rest of the world does not jump to the sound of Cameron or one of his minions spouting off. If as you claim this was Cameron's doing then this is actually disgusting because it would show that Cameron acted in the interests of himself rather than the Libyan people. I remember you have stated many times about legality of regime change and again you have changed your views to suit some sort of praise for Cameron. The reality is simple, the west saw a perfect opportunity to remove Gadaffi, the timing was perfect following the disruption in the surrounding countries. The prize for this is simple, access to oil. Gadaffi was a despot and his removal will be of benefit for the Libyan people, but only if they are allowed to mould and run their own country. What will probably happen though is a Iraq re-run and tribal infights and secular disagreements. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Relations improved during the 1990s, and peaked in December 2003, when Libya announced that they would abandon their weapons of mass destruction programmes. UK Prime Minister Tony Blair travelled to Tripoli, met with Gaddafi and declared a "new relationship" between the countries Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 re Iraq and Afghanistan, especially considering your comments previously about regime change and how you commented about acts of war The action in Libya was authorized by the United Nations Security Council. in Iraq it was not The Arab League urged the UN to take action against the Gaddafi regime, they did not in Iraq No false allegations were made against the Gaddafi regime, of being in league with al-Qaeda or of having a nuclear weapons program etc etc so i suspect the sick you can taste is due to the actions of Blair rather than my consistent views on the matter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 The actions of Nato were a joint decision, you make it out as though Cameron was some sort of super-hero and that the rest of Nato followed. no that is a conclusion you have rather bizarrely come to ... but it WAS Cameron who persuaded the UN into drawing up a new United Nations security council resolution that would include a threat to impose a no-fly zone ( after European leaders failed to give clear support for a no-fly zone at an emergency European summit ) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Would it be best to all wait a couple of years and see what Libya becomes before we all compete to see who was responsible? I'd suggest that if in two years time we have another Iran, Pakistan, or even Afghanistan, but just a few miles of the coasts of Italy and Malta nobody will want to claim they were first to help. It's a long way from being over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 re Iraq and Afghanistan, especially considering your comments previously about regime change and how you commented about acts of war The action in Libya was authorized by the United Nations Security Council. in Iraq it was not The Arab League urged the UN to take action against the Gaddafi regime, they did not in Iraq No false allegations were made against the Gaddafi regime, of being in league with al-Qaeda or of having a nuclear weapons program etc etc so i suspect the sick you can taste is due to the actions of Blair rather than my consistent views on the matter Laughable again Tony. Previously you claim that Gadaffi's demise was in some way a victory for Cameron and then you try (and fail) to justify it. Interesting that your views on regime change especially are now so different. I wonder why that is? The re-write of history you (and the right wing media not surprisingly) are attempting is concerning especially with your comment re Blair and "cosying" up to Gadaffi. As has been pointed out the relationships (from a world perspective not just the UK note) with Libya changed as a result of many circumstances and also interestingly that the previous Tory Gvmt were part of that change along with people like Hague contacting Blair for advice. But as said this is nothing but deflection from the real issues that face this country and for all the opportunist triumphalism being oozed out of Number 10 at the moment, the simple truth is that this country is still facing a lot bigger problems as a result of Cameron and his cronies actions. Maybe he will declare some sort of war against his opponents here, oh but he has done that already I suppose with the attacks on areas such as the poor, NHS, anywhere outside the Tory SE heartlands. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 ut the Tory party have always been known for their fondness for a war to deflect attention let me guess Thatcher forced Argentina to invade the Falklands as part of a conspiracy to boost her popularity and Chamberlain declared war on Germany in an early re-election campaign bid :shock: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 The actions of Nato were a joint decision, you make it out as though Cameron was some sort of super-hero and that the rest of Nato followed. no that is a conclusion you have rather bizarrely come to ... but it WAS Cameron who persuaded the UN into drawing up a new United Nations security council resolution that would include a threat to impose a no-fly zone ( after European leaders failed to give clear support for a no-fly zone at an emergency European summit ) No it was NOT!!! Tony, again you are trying to make Cameron out to be some sort of super hero. And interestingly a piece in the Torygraph really does dismiss your view of this helping the UK's position in the world link Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Tony, again you are trying to make Cameron out to be some sort of super hero maybe next he will come out and say " We not only saved the world" And interestingly a piece in the Torygraph you really have to stop trying to pass of "blogs" as fact Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CarewsEyebrowDesigner Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 It's a long way from being over. This. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 From the start of events : Cameron took a bold gamble two weeks ago when he became the first Western leader to call unequivocally for a no-fly zone to protect anti-government rebels from the bloody reprisals undertaken by forces loyal to Colonel Muammar Gaddafi, the Libyan dictator At the time, there seemed to be little appetite for the measure elsewhere. Is that from a Torygraph leader, by any chance? :winkold: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snowychap Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Would it be best to all wait a couple of years and see what Libya becomes before we all compete to see who was responsible? I'd suggest that if in two years time we have another Iran, Pakistan, or even Afghanistan, but just a few miles of the coasts of Italy and Malta nobody will want to claim they were first to help. It's a long way from being over. Good points. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Tony, again you are trying to make Cameron out to be some sort of super hero maybe next he will come out and say " We not only saved the world" And interestingly a piece in the Torygraph you really have to stop trying to pass of "blogs" as fact ?? Tony so it's a blog stating an opinion. I am struggling to see where I said it was a fact. Stating it's an interesting viewing, and significantly in a very right wing media outlet, really does show though that your view that this helps the UK in some way to be one that is probably held by a very few. And again I have to smirk at your selective quoting - knowing that the quote you are trying (and failing) to make a humorous quote out of was a mistake that was quickly corrected by Brown in relation to the banks. I wonder if Cameron will now be so gushing in his praise as to how the USA won the war .... he has a history of that :-) Maybe Cameron could actually listen to this bloke "Well, it's now on the record. He is so busy talking about saving the world, he has forgotten about the businesses of this country." :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetrees Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 it's interesting that Cameron is trying to claim that Gadaffi's overthrow by the people of Libya is in somehow a victory for the UK I know it embarrasses you immensely that Blair and brown cosied up to Gadaffi and sold out the Pam Am victims to grab a quick buck out of Libya but your deflection attempts are still poor even by your I agree that this has been a good tick in the box for Cameron, but surely I am not alone in thinking that, had the 'Arab Spring' not occurred until 2013', there would have been similar images of DC embracing Muammar. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
thetrees Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 not gloating just statesman like ... Really. I thought he came across as he usually does. A pompous prick born with a silver spoon in his mouth spouting what had been fed to him and never speaking from the heart. Statesman like he will never be. This could describe the previous two Prime Ministers as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markavfc40 Posted October 21, 2011 Share Posted October 21, 2011 Would it be best to all wait a couple of years and see what Libya becomes before we all compete to see who was responsible? I'd suggest that if in two years time we have another Iran, Pakistan, or even Afghanistan, but just a few miles of the coasts of Italy and Malta nobody will want to claim they were first to help. It's a long way from being over. Given the shit that the Tory party have served us up then its no surprise the blue supporting boys and girls will grab on to any small crumbs to praise the inept, vindictive, lacking in morals party they support. Like you say though the chances are they have gone way, way too early. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
colhint Posted October 22, 2011 Share Posted October 22, 2011 The actions of Nato were a joint decision, you make it out as though Cameron was some sort of super-hero and that the rest of Nato followed. no that is a conclusion you have rather bizarrely come to ... but it WAS Cameron who persuaded the UN into drawing up a new United Nations security council resolution that would include a threat to impose a no-fly zone ( after European leaders failed to give clear support for a no-fly zone at an emergency European summit ) No it was NOT!!!Tony, again you are trying to make Cameron out to be some sort of super hero. And interestingly a piece in the Torygraph really does dismiss your view of this helping the UK's position in the world link I have just checked AlJazeera (probably as independant as I can find) on the the subject of no fly zones in Libya and the only world leader listed in the prominent pages is Cameron. Forget political point scoring for a moment. there are lives at stake here My family are in close contact with a local Libyan family here. The father is a surgeon at a local hospital. He has taken his Holidays to work in field hospitals since the troubles began. The family help coordinate Libyan families in the UK, to you and me, that is finding out whose brothers/sisters/cousins etc have been killed. We help by looking after their kids when they have to attend a meeting in Manchester/Leeds/Sheffield etc. They cannot speak highly enough of Cameron. Nor can the families of British Soldiers So what exactly do you want from a Prime Minister, in this situation. pretend they had WMD and they could bomb us in 45 minutes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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