Bolitics The New Condem Government

[avfc89]

it pisses me off that university is seen as some holy grail to becoming educated. it really isn't. if it is then secondary education is a complete failure.

the fact that you can get to any university with terrible grades is beyond me. which you can certainly do.

The cost of university has increased dramatically. therefore it HAS to be something that received cuts, in some form. I do have an issue with the level they are cutting this budget as well as introducing larger fees.

the only decent option would be to increase the number of points on courses, therefore reducing the number of university places significantly based on individuals achievements.

therefore fees could stay the same but uni places are reduced. you then merge some universities together, because there's too many of them.

What other alternatives do young people have in this Country?

apprenticeships, setup your own business, train in many other areas that don't require university.

What percentage of university graduates end up going into a job which requires no such further education? i bet the percentage is a lot higher than people think.

yes university is not just about getting a great job, but I don't agree I should be funding someone's university course merely to merely educate them.

University is certainly not a solution to obtaining a decent wage/living. far from it.

All the areas you have mentioned are mainly lip service, and training schemes are being cut by this current Government. It is also important to remember that certain individuals want to go to University for reasons other than financial and will be deterred by the fees. It is a sad day for Education in England and for the future generations in this country.

[kidlewis]

Fair play to the 21

Anyhow common sense has prevailed , the bill has passed and we can move on to other areas of reform and the students can back to doing whatever next weeks student fad is

What a disgusting attitude Tony.

why .. just cause I happen to think that students should pay their own way ..

Yes I know people are going to trott out the line about the poor students and so on but no one has to sit down tomorrow and write a cheque for £9k to go to university , so in that regard it isn't penalising anyone

yes students do benefit the country , but the students themselves also benefit and £7 a month in extra tax or whatever it is , really is a small price to pay in the long run ... unless you think every student goes to uni to leave and go and do voluntary work in the Sudan ? and if they do then they wont have to pay the bloody loan thingy back anyway ..

So no it isn't a disgusting attitude , what is disgusting is the wanton vandalism and destruction that "some" of the protesters have caused imo

they've ruined Churchill, the ignorant **** words removed.

tear gas the ****.

[tonyh29]

On the Nimrod thing

From what Blandy says , on first inspection the Nimrod thing looks like nothing more than stupidity or worse still spite , but the govt bloke reckons that scrapping them will save £2 Bn over the next 10 years :confused:

i guess we will never know the real motive ....

[peterms]

apprenticeships, setup your own business, train in many other areas that don't require university.

What percentage of university graduates end up going into a job which requires no such further education? i bet the percentage is a lot higher than people think.

yes university is not just about getting a great job, but I don't agree I should be funding someone's university course merely to merely educate them.

University is certainly not a solution to obtaining a decent wage/living. far from it.

Apprenticeships have been getting cut for years. Small businesses are getting shafted by the banks and by bigger businesses. We don't seem to be very good at identifying the skills we will need and making sure we create and retain them.

Alongside that, we had the doubling of university places under Thatcher, watering down the more vocational ethos of many of the places which were newly dubbed "universities", for reasons I still can't grasp.

It all seems a very muddled approach, and one which is in need of fundamental review. Instead of which, we have a purely budget-driven hatchet job, causing turmoil with no clear aim in sight.

[tonyh29]

That certain individuals want to go to University for reasons other than financial and will be deterred by the fees.

:confused:

so money they won't pay up front , and won't pay back either assuming they and not financially motivated and take a low paying job when they graduate ..is putting them off going to Uni

I'm I missing something here ?

[kidlewis]

it pisses me off that university is seen as some holy grail to becoming educated. it really isn't. if it is then secondary education is a complete failure.

the fact that you can get to any university with terrible grades is beyond me. which you can certainly do.

The cost of university has increased dramatically. therefore it HAS to be something that received cuts, in some form. I do have an issue with the level they are cutting this budget as well as introducing larger fees.

the only decent option would be to increase the number of points on courses, therefore reducing the number of university places significantly based on individuals achievements.

therefore fees could stay the same but uni places are reduced. you then merge some universities together, because there's too many of them.

What other alternatives do young people have in this Country?

apprenticeships, setup your own business, train in many other areas that don't require university.

What percentage of university graduates end up going into a job which requires no such further education? i bet the percentage is a lot higher than people think.

yes university is not just about getting a great job, but I don't agree I should be funding someone's university course merely to merely educate them.

University is certainly not a solution to obtaining a decent wage/living. far from it.

All the areas you have mentioned are mainly lip service, and training schemes are being cut by this current Government. It is also important to remember that certain individuals want to go to University for reasons other than financial and will be deterred by the fees. It is a sad day for Education in England and for the future generations in this country.

what are these other reasons? you go to uni to get a qualification you can use in some way. not just go to uni to get a degree as some sort of clever badge. plus they aren't as important now as years gone by, because so many people have them.

as I have said before, certain jobs now actually require more than a degree, you need experience in the field as well. so unless people can get experience whilst at university in their chosen field, they ain't getting a job in what they want to do.

if you want to improve your education then you can always do a course from home like so many mothers (and I know people who do it) and other people do. Whilst they work.

I know someone who did a degree whilst working full time over 5 years. they didn't go to uni. so telling me you need uni to get a degree isn't true. you don't need a loan, you don't need the freshers week either.

[kidlewis]

apprenticeships, setup your own business, train in many other areas that don't require university.

What percentage of university graduates end up going into a job which requires no such further education? i bet the percentage is a lot higher than people think.

yes university is not just about getting a great job, but I don't agree I should be funding someone's university course merely to merely educate them.

University is certainly not a solution to obtaining a decent wage/living. far from it.

Apprenticeships have been getting cut for years. Small businesses are getting shafted by the banks and by bigger businesses. We don't seem to be very good at identifying the skills we will need and making sure we create and retain them.

Alongside that, we had the doubling of university places under Thatcher, watering down the more vocational ethos of many of the places which were newly dubbed "universities", for reasons I still can't grasp.

It all seems a very muddled approach, and one which is in need of fundamental review. Instead of which, we have a purely budget-driven hatchet job, causing turmoil with no clear aim in sight.

that has been my biggest issue with the previous government. Throw money at stuff and it will improve. NHS being one. the amount of increased investment for the return in improvements doesn't hold up.

now the condem government will bare the brunt of the backlash because they have to cut the wild credit card spending of the previous government. the budget was for a non recession country. it's quite clear that is the case.

It's funny how Labour in opposition not coming up with any alternative at all. using the excuse of 'we don't have to we're in opposition'. something I didn't agree with when the tories used that line against Brown.

There needs to be a move away from this point and shout attitude from both parties, not a lot of decent dialog between them.

Labour saying it's a shit idea

Tories saying it's a good one.

Lib Dems going meh!

the fact is something needs to change.

perhaps we should increase taxes by 10% and not cut anything at all!!!!!

[snowychap]

what are these other reasons? you go to uni to get a qualification you can use in some way. not just go to uni to get a degree as some sort of clever badge

What I read from avfc89's post (and no doubt it'll turn out I drew the wrong inference) was that he thought that not everyone (indeed perhaps they may be a substantial number) looks at getting a qualification in order to increase their remuneration over the course of their life's employment; that any potential pay premium is not the driver for their decision.

[avfc89]

Fair play to the 21

Anyhow common sense has prevailed , the bill has passed and we can move on to other areas of reform and the students can back to doing whatever next weeks student fad is

What a disgusting attitude Tony.

why .. just cause I happen to think that students should pay their own way ..

Yes I know people are going to trott out the line about the poor students and so on but no one has to sit down tomorrow and write a cheque for £9k to go to university , so in that regard it isn't penalising anyone

yes students do benefit the country , but the students themselves also benefit and £7 a month in extra tax or whatever it is , really is a small price to pay in the long run ... unless you think every student goes to uni to leave and go and do voluntary work in the Sudan ? and if they do then they wont have to pay the bloody loan thingy back anyway ..

So no it isn't a disgusting attitude , what is disgusting is the wanton vandalism and destruction that "some" of the protesters have caused imo

It is a disgusting attitude when you see other neighboring nations protect their youth's academic prospects.

[kidlewis]

what are these other reasons? you go to uni to get a qualification you can use in some way. not just go to uni to get a degree as some sort of clever badge

What I read from avfc89's post (and no doubt it'll turn out I drew the wrong inference) was that he thought that not everyone (indeed perhaps a substantial number) look at getting a qualification in order to increase their remuneration over the course of their life's employment, that any potential pay premium is not the driver for their decision.

perhaps the media have selected their interviewees very well, but the vast majority they interviewed said that is why they are going there. To get a qualification to get a good job.

some courses are of course not for that purpose, history perhaps or fine art or music, but the premium is offset largely by the passion for a subject in those and many other cases.

Some people against the fees on the tv seem to want things to carry on, same budget, same fees and no cuts. which is fine, but I don't want my personal taxes to go up to pay for it.

[chrisp65]

Fair play to the 21

Anyhow common sense has prevailed , the bill has passed and we can move on to other areas of reform and the students can back to doing whatever next weeks student fad is

What a disgusting attitude Tony.

why .. just cause I happen to think that students should pay their own way ..

Yes I know people are going to trott out the line about the poor students and so on but no one has to sit down tomorrow and write a cheque for £9k to go to university , so in that regard it isn't penalising anyone

yes students do benefit the country , but the students themselves also benefit and £7 a month in extra tax or whatever it is , really is a small price to pay in the long run ... unless you think every student goes to uni to leave and go and do voluntary work in the Sudan ? and if they do then they wont have to pay the bloody loan thingy back anyway ..

So no it isn't a disgusting attitude , what is disgusting is the wanton vandalism and destruction that "some" of the protesters have caused imo

but why should students pay their own way?

surely the right to a free education is an over riding priviledge of growing up in Britain. If some kid wants to spend a few years doing media studies, analysing star wars or writing a thesis on coronation street why should they pay? Surely it's better that I pay via my taxes?

perhaps, when I am benevolent dictator we can sort this by having a selective fee system. Working to be a doctor / nurse / engineer etc? Here have a subsidy. Hoping to study modern ceramics / dance / drama? Sorry love, you'll be paying.

[drat01]

On the Nimrod thing

From what Blandy says , on first inspection the Nimrod thing looks like nothing more than stupidity or worse still spite , but the govt bloke reckons that scrapping them will save £2 Bn over the next 10 years :confused:

i guess we will never know the real motive ....

I know out of the two who I believe and its Pete

[Awol]

It is a disgusting attitude when you see other neighboring nations protect their youth's academic prospects.

What system would you put in place avfc89, given the choice?

[kidlewis]

Fair play to the 21

Anyhow common sense has prevailed , the bill has passed and we can move on to other areas of reform and the students can back to doing whatever next weeks student fad is

What a disgusting attitude Tony.

why .. just cause I happen to think that students should pay their own way ..

Yes I know people are going to trott out the line about the poor students and so on but no one has to sit down tomorrow and write a cheque for £9k to go to university , so in that regard it isn't penalising anyone

yes students do benefit the country , but the students themselves also benefit and £7 a month in extra tax or whatever it is , really is a small price to pay in the long run ... unless you think every student goes to uni to leave and go and do voluntary work in the Sudan ? and if they do then they wont have to pay the bloody loan thingy back anyway ..

So no it isn't a disgusting attitude , what is disgusting is the wanton vandalism and destruction that "some" of the protesters have caused imo

but why should students pay their own way?

surely the right to a free education is an over riding priviledge of growing up in Britain. If some kid wants to spend a few years doing media studies, analysing star wars or writing a thesis on coronation street why should they pay? Surely it's better that I pay via my taxes?

perhaps, when I am benevolent dictator we can sort this by having a selective fee system. Working to be a doctor / nurse / engineer etc? Here have a subsidy. Hoping to study modern ceramics / dance / drama? Sorry love, you'll be paying.

perhaps we should increase everyones taxes by 1% (poor, average and rich) and then have no fees? and massive budget?

Education should be free yes, but this is further education.

if you need to go to uni to become educated then we might as well allow mature students free education as well. if someone of 90 wants to do a uni course then we should pay for it as well.

I have no doubt labour would increase fees, what else would they do?

probably tax us more which would go down like the holocaust.

[avfc89]

what are these other reasons? you go to uni to get a qualification you can use in some way. not just go to uni to get a degree as some sort of clever badge. plus they aren't as important now as years gone by, because so many people have them.

Many people go in to higher education for various reasons - one is obviously to better their knowledge and help contribute to society with what they have gained from their educational experience; I don't believe every individual is driven by money, and in fact I'm not obsessed with my own financial prospects. I personally just want a comfortable life.

[kidlewis]

what are these other reasons? you go to uni to get a qualification you can use in some way. not just go to uni to get a degree as some sort of clever badge. plus they aren't as important now as years gone by, because so many people have them.

Many people go in to higher education for various reasons - one is obviously to better their knowledge and help contribute to society with what they have gained from their educational experience; I don't believe every individual is driven by money, and in fact I'm not obsessed with my own financial prospects. I personally just want a comfortable life.

better society how?

by not being stupid?

you contribute with your education through becoming a teacher, nurser, doctor and other professions largely in the public sector, but obviously working for charities and social work etc.

if we are to not increase fees or address the large budget, how to we tackle the issue?

no real alternatives being spoken of other than, 'we don't want fees or cuts, and still want 50% to go to uni'

great.

If you applied that logic to many other situations it would be regarded as stupid.

[tonyh29]

I personally just want a comfortable life.

so does eveyone else and by not subsiding students through the tax system maybe we can all have one :winkold:

[snowychap]

no real alternatives being spoken of other than, 'we don't want fees or cuts, and still want 50% to go to uni'

One of the problems with how this has been forced through at this pace is that there hasn't been much time for debate about or suggestions of other options.

During today's debate, Caroline Lucas mentioned one suggestion that someone had made about having a levy on large companies who may well be seen to benefit disproportionately from graduate workers (one problem I could see from that would be the incidence of such a levy but still).

The point is that there has been little time allowed for policy discussion since the release of Browne and the coalition policy (which was always going to be the policy that went through) was pretty much a fait accompli (though a flexible one as seen by their changes in the last few days). Most of the time spent on the subject by the government has been either defence of the policy or the apparent conscience wrestling of Lib Dems.

[snowychap]

To get a qualification to get a good job.

Why does that necessarily mean that it's about the pay level?

Obviously, I haven't seen these interviews that you have so I'm just having to go on the way you are presenting their views.

[avfc89]

I personally just want a comfortable life.

so does eveyone else and by not subsiding students through the tax system maybe we can all have one :winkold:

I have no problems refunding the educational system through taxes; I believe we should look after one another in this Country. Are we a collective nation or a bunch of money driven individuals? I know what I believe in.