Bolitics The New Condem Government

[drat01]

Pete the IFS also stated that a lot more students from poorer backgrounds have enjoyed access to higher education in the recent years because of the current system and that will diminish.

Some other key points from their study

By decile of parental income, graduates from the poorest 30% of households would pay back less than under Lord Browne’s proposed system, but more than under the current system.

While all graduates from families with incomes above this would pay more, graduates from the 6th and richest (10th) deciles of parental income would pay back the most under the proposed system.

The new system is less transparent than the current system and that proposed by Lord Browne, with a more complex system of student support and interest rates.

The new system also generates perverse incentives – for example the National Scholarship fund provides a financial incentive for universities charging over £6,000 a year to turn away students from poorer backgrounds

While it does benefit poor students, it does not benefit poor graduates.

link

Its a good "little" read giving their points of view on it. But after all that it's still just an opinion :-)

[Awol]

Jon - this was a pledge, something they signed to. A lot of people voted for them based on that,

Not introducing fees was a pledge made and broken by Labour, what's the difference?

I remember you claiming that they are not the same party as the Tories, if that was the case they do not have to vote for this very retrograde step that is part of Tory ideology but very much against what the Old Lib Dems stood for.

I see you still haven't got your head around the idea of coalition Government!

The polls show the support for the LibDems as such is now virtually gone completely, the party as it was is dead

That may well be the case.

Jon use the word hypocrite because I remember very well the "outrage" and the many comments you made during the last Gvmt about Europe, when at that time it was over a completely different thing. It's also very hypocritical of you (and Tony) to now start supporting the Lib Dem's (just seen a banner calling them Tory Lite which I thought was amusing) especially as quick look back during the pre-election phase your support was very much against what they stood for.

I don't support the Lib Dems and I am also against this policy, I've never said anything to imply that I do.

So to my original question reference fees, the difference between Labour breaking their pledge and the Lib Des breaking their pledge is what, exactly?

[blandy]

It's more than opinion - it's analysis and informed, unbiased, opinion resulting from the analysis undertaken.

But whatever, for a long time now people have been encouraged to go to uni, partly to mask unemployment, partly to earn degrees in all kinds of utter crap and people like us are paying for it.

For me it's like the beenfits thing. The state should provide, from our taxes, the basic necessities to people - whether that be a pension, health care, unemployment help or a standard education.

If people want more than that - private schooling, private hospitals, universty etc. then they should pay for it themselves. In terms of Uni, then for people who want the extra education, then a facility should be available to allow them to borrow the money to pay for it. That's my personal feeling. An alternative would be additional taxation for graduates, but as much as I admire the students for getting off their arses and protesting, I don't agree with their cause at all.

[drat01]

Jon, give it a rest now will you please, I have explained it above. Your continued approach to this is nothing more than a deflection from the points being discussed.

And just to "remind" you about the introduction of tuition fees under the last Gvmt. It needed the "help" of the Tory party, The Lib Dems were massively against it, there were many votes against it from Labour MP's at the time. There was serious and lengthy debate at the conferences and within the Labour party, not something that was just rushed in on a whim of idealogical thinking and a desire for power.

I cannot help but smile at how you now mix up coalition and joint party ideas. The whole thing for thing for the coalition was as you said two separate parties trying (and IMO failing) to form a Gvmt. That does NOT mean they have to vote together on things unless of course they are part of the same.

[blandy]

That kind of emphasises the overall hypocrisy of all of them, Ian.

Labour promised not to do it in their manifesto, then did it, were split on it (as are Libs now) and only got it through because the tories mostly supported it.

They're all slagging each other off or being as bad as each other. The current Labour idea of a tax was vehemently opposed by Alan Johnson last time, but now he has (reluctantly) agreed to support that idea.... It goes on.

End of the day someone has to pay for Students to learn their media studies and drama or applied soap opera writing.

Why should that be me, and not the students?

[mjmooney]

The state should provide, from our taxes, the basic necessities to people - whether that be a pension, health care, unemployment help or a standard education.

If people want more than that - private schooling, private hospitals, universty etc. then they should pay for it themselves. In terms of Uni, then for people who want the extra education, then a facility should be available to allow them to borrow the money to pay for it.

Why do you draw the line between school and university?

My view is that education should be free to all who have the ability, at each level. But that ability issue is key. I see no point in massively increasing access to university education by lowering standards. Which is what has been happening for years. 25%-50% of the population to get degrees? Utter crap. (Yes, Tony, I know it was a New Labour idea. And it was still crap). Higher education should be "elitist" in the sense of being a meritocracy. It's not surprising graduates can't get jobs - employers have rumbled them. A "good" degree at a "good" university may still be worth something, but a so-called degree in media studies (for the sake of argument) at the university of Shitsville (formerly Shitshire FE College) is not worth having - certainly not for nine grand a year. Increase difficulty, raise standards, lower numbers and lower fees would be my approach. Then the bright kids from poorer backgrounds might get a fair shout at education and careers.

I work at a university, and quite frankly, many of the students I see around here wouldn't have got near an A-level back in the 70s, let alone a degree.

Disclaimer: naturally, this does not represent the views of my employers.

[TrentVilla]

Labour promised not to do it in their manifesto, then did it, were split on it (as are Libs now) and only got it through because the tories mostly supported it.

They're all slagging each other off or being as bad as each other. The current Labour idea of a tax was vehemently opposed by Alan Johnson last time, but now he has (reluctantly) agreed to support that idea.... It goes on.

I agree Pete, to be fair Ian it was a perfectly reasonable question from Jon which you hadn't answered.

All parties go back on election promises, Labour did it and the current government are doing it.

[blandy]

I draw the line at A levels, or whatever they're called now, Mike.

I totally agree with what you posted. If it was just proper clever people going to Uni - smaller numbers, genuinely learning and advancing knowledge, then it would be clear for me - slap an extra 1 or 2 percent on their tax code, so that they pay back (and more) from their subsequent jobs as high earning accountants or doctors or whatever.

But for numpties to go and spend 3 years studying fabric design and media at your poly/Uni before getting a McJob - what's the point? and why are we paying for it?

[tonyh29]

ony it's not "my" party ................... and you can cry if you want to

you would if it happened to you !!

on the plus side at least we know where Judy is , all we have to do is find punch :-) (lets see if anyone gets it :-) )

[mjmooney]

I draw the line at A levels, or whatever they're called now, Mike.

Out of interest Pete - are you a graduate yourself?

[TrentVilla]

Well if they do pass the vote, when do we get our tax reduction?

[drat01]

That kind of emphasises the overall hypocrisy of all of them, Ian.

Labour promised not to do it in their manifesto, then did it, were split on it (as are Libs now) and only got it through because the tories mostly supported it.

They're all slagging each other off or being as bad as each other. The current Labour idea of a tax was vehemently opposed by Alan Johnson last time, but now he has (reluctantly) agreed to support that idea.... It goes on.

End of the day someone has to pay for Students to learn their media studies and drama or applied soap opera writing.

Why should that be me, and not the students?

Pete listening to a lot of the protesters both today and previously, the difference for the anger this time is a lot based on the "contract pledge" that the LibDems put their signatures to.

Manifesto's, something often used by the opposition previously are now not worth the paper or disks they are written, seems to be the rules. We have seen that within days of taking power this lot basically ripped up what they were elected on to bring in things they denied they would do prior to the election. I think the public know that will happen, as the honourable political figure is like a decent sha fan, you know they are out there but very difficult to find.

The Tory party are pissing themselves with laughter at all of this, because a) they were not elected in enough numbers to bring this in now they have taken the LibDems in are happy for public anger to be directed at them. Scandalous that Clegg, a so called man of honour previously, allows that to happen to a party that has stood pretty much against that behaviour.

[mjmooney]

That fire looks a bit serious.

[drat01]

ony it's not "my" party ................... and you can cry if you want to

you would if it happened to you !!

on the plus side at least we know where Judy is , all we have to do is find punch :-) (lets see if anyone gets it :-) )

Booo Hiss - attempted clever humour that does not work. Boo Hisss - I blame a poor education system ...... :-)

[drat01]

That fire looks a bit serious.

Litter Prevention Scheme Mike - The Green Party don't miss a trick

[snowychap]

So to my original question reference fees, the difference between Labour breaking their pledge and the Lib Des breaking their pledge is what, exactly?

Which pledge did Labour break (on this matter - I know they broke a number of pledges, now known as 'aspirations' thanks to Gordo and his lawyers)?

I don't think they went around universities and students' unions signing explicit guarantees, did they?

[tonyh29]

Fair play to Clegg putting the countries interest over his party and his own

The country needs more politicians like him

You wind up merchant :-)

Actually heard a few callers on 5 live this morning say the same thing , so I'm not as alone in this as i thought

I do think this is part of Nicks gamble , by the time of the next election assuming all goes well , do you think the voters will care that a graduate will be paying £7 a month extra in tax ( about the cost of 1 Che Guevara T-shirt) for his job paying him £22k ?

[blandy]

Pete listening to a lot of the protesters both today and previously, the difference for the anger this time is a lot based on the "contract pledge" that the LibDems put their signatures to....

Aye, I guess they thought "he's not the same as the others, he's different" and they've found out that he is in fact a Politician, and like the scorpion and the frog....

As I say, I don't support their cause in this instance, but nevertheless I'm pleased the students are having a good old protest.

No Mike.

[tonyh29]

It's also very hypocritical of you (and Tony) to now start supporting the Lib Dem's

Wash your mouth out :-)

I don't support them I've just stopped calling them the yougurt knitting abstain party as Chindie got cheesed off by it and I was trying to keep peace and harmony on VT

[drat01]

Tony - sit down mate something coming that will knock you back ............................ you have made a good point there!

deep breath, deep breath

BUT the point is the changing of the "rules" re parliament length and calling general elections will allow more of this abuse, which then shows up a massive fundamental flaw in the changes they have imposed to remain claiming their expenses and repaying their mates.