UK support to Israel/Palestine v Ceasefire calls

[blandy]

7 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

our government have stated are to assist Israel, at which point you’ve stated it wasn’t to help Israel kill civilians. 

I’ve asked what you based that assumption on.

Based on I know how Elint is used and what it tells those who have it. To try and explain even further, I don't think I've stated it wasn't used to kill civilians, though you've produced no evidence it was, which would be more helpful. The purpose of the intelligence gathering is to monitor the movements and comms of Hezbollah and Hamas. Are you OK with that part - they "what are the planes doing?" part.

If you are Ok with believing they are monitoring the RF signals in the region, then presumably you can accept that out of that monitoring comes a picture of what Hezbollah are doing, what kit they're using, where they are, whether/when they're planning or launching rockets and or drones and so on. What Iran is transmitting - that kind of stuff.

Now, if the UK has that information and passes it on to Israel - "Hamas are saying this, Hezbollah are moving over there, Hezbollah are about to Launch rockets from this position...Iran is saying this..." is that a reasonable thing for the UK to do? is it reasonable to, knowing that rocket attacks are about to be launched on Israel, to tell them?

Beyond that, it's then outside of our control. Do you think we should, in the light of Israel's actions, decide to stop providing them with this information? Either answer is fine. Mine would be no, it isn't, but I can see why someone would say to Israel "stop doing ewhat you're doing or we'll stop warning you about rocket attacks/Hezbollah plans"

[blandy]

6 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

i asked if you had any quotes or evidence, that doesn’t feel unreasonable.

It does feel unreasonable. Prove a negative is not a reasonable ask. Can you prove you haven't committed a crime?

[magnkarl]

I don’t even think the limited rf information provided to Israel by our flights on Hamas does anything to change their bombing of civilians, they do it anyway, but to be fair if we’re helping Israel from being inundated by Iranian made rockets fired from their Islamist fundamentalist militias in Syria and Lebanon I don’t quite see how that is so objectionable?

[chrisp65]

10 minutes ago, blandy said:

It does feel unreasonable. Prove a negative is not a reasonable ask. Can you prove you haven't committed a crime?

You said it hadn’t been used in a specific way, I was asking how you knew.

I think I’ve had all the answer I needed.

 

[blandy]

28 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

we’re talking about surveillance flights

You wrote about delivery flights to start with.

On 16/11/2023 at 07:36, blandy said:

the RAF flights in to Israel...perhaps they’re just delivering Um Bongo

 

5 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

You said it hadn’t been used in a specific way,

I've just looked back over my posts, and I can't see where I did that. The only possibility is this one, where I said

On 16/11/2023 at 15:43, chrisp65 said:

Surveillance support for Israel is basically monitoring Hams and Hezbollah communications to ...support Israel with intercepted comms on rocket and ammunition movement, on movement and locations of fighters on the ground, on Iranian Intel and such like. It's not "Ooh look, there's a hospital you can bomb and there's a mosque you can bomb". Quite the opposite.

The quite the opposite bit there means it's not "go bomb a Palestinian hospital" it's "Hezbollah/Hamas are going to rocket your town". If it's something else, then please quote it. Like I've repeated, prove there's no God is not a reasonable stance.

 

[Thug]

23 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

I don’t even think the limited rf information provided to Israel by our flights on Hamas does anything to change their bombing of civilians, they do it anyway, but to be fair if we’re helping Israel from being inundated by Iranian made rockets fired from their Islamist fundamentalist militias in Syria and Lebanon I don’t quite see how that is so objectionable?

In essence, it’s not objectionable at all.  Who wants rockets to fall on Israeli citizens? No one (I’d hope).

But it’s the issue of enablement. 
 

As it stands Israel has no reason to stop.  There’s no fear of retribution, no fear of condemnation, no fear of sanctions.  
 

Theres just no reason to stop.  We’re telling them, don’t worry, carry on.  We’ll keep an eye on anyone else that threatens to intervene.

The status quo is that Israel has nothing to lose.  No consequences.  We are a huge part of enabling it by proving any help at all.

We shouldn’t be doing it.

[chrisp65]

2 hours ago, chrisp65 said:

The government minister was quoted as saying it was surveillance to assist Israel. That’s not my spin, or 2+2=5 that’s a quote from a minister of state, for everything that’s worth these days.

your response quoting the above was:

2 hours ago, blandy said:

And that's correct, or at least part of the picture. It's also to assist our own UK intelligence gathering on terrorist group activities. What it isn't is helping Israel kill civilians.

I asked how you knew this as it appeared quite a definite assertion, and you’ve said you can’t prove a negative.

I quoted Janes in my response, you appear quite put out by being asked for sources to back up that it isn’t helping Israel kill civilians. That’s absolutely fine. So perhaps, rather than ignorance, insinuation, and speculation, it’s just based on trust of the military and the conservatives. 

 

[Thug]

Just now, blandy said:

Who is the "we" who's telling them to carry on (bearing in mind this is the Labour party thread). Labour has voted for a humanitarian pause, the SNP motion supported by some Labour was for a cease fire.

The USA is pretty much the most supportive and they've said (father Ted) "careful now" and I think the tories have echoed that.

We already discussed what an humanitarian pause is.

But my answer was to a question about the morality of supplying intel.  

Indeed, this is probably the wrong thread, but last few pages (including your posts) have been about the supply of intel.

[blandy]

3 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

I asked how you knew this as it appeared quite a definite assertion, and you’ve said you can’t prove a negative.

I quoted Janes in my response, you appear quite put out by being asked for sources to back up that it isn’t helping Israel kill civilians. That’s absolutely fine. So perhaps, rather than ignorance, insinuation, and speculation, it’s just based on trust of the military and the conservatives. 

Thanks. I stick by it. Intelligence gathering for our own use and for passing on to others (USA, Israel) isn't helping to kill civilians. Passing on intelligence about rocket attacks isn't helping to kill civilians.

I guess we're at the point where we each think the other is going slightly mad, so I'll go to the beer shop now.

 

[blandy]

4 minutes ago, Thug said:

ndeed, this is probably the wrong thread, but last few pages (including your posts) have been about the supply of intel.

Yeah, you're right. It probably needs splitting out into a new thread - it's not really about Israel and it's not (just) about Labour - so If I get time I'll start a new topic about UK support to Israel/Palestine and move a load of posts there, if I can.

[bickster]

17 minutes ago, blandy said:

Yeah, you're right. It probably needs splitting out into a new thread - it's not really about Israel and it's not (just) about Labour - so If I get time I'll start a new topic about UK support to Israel/Palestine and move a load of posts there, if I can.

Be afraid, very afraid….

[meregreen]

6 hours ago, Thug said:

We already discussed what an humanitarian pause is.

But my answer was to a question about the morality of supplying intel.  

Indeed, this is probably the wrong thread, but last few pages (including your posts) have been about the supply of intel.

Israel is one of the most tech savvy countries in the world. They have a massive IT industry. Don’t think MOSSAD need our assistance on anything to be honest. If they did need any help, the USA is their most likely source.

Edited November 18, 2023 by meregreen

[blandy]

Split from the Labour party thread

[Thug]

52 minutes ago, meregreen said:

Steal is one of the most tech savvy countries in the world. They have a massive IT industry. Don’t think MOSSAD need our assistance on anything to be honest. If they did need any help, the USA is their most likely source.

Agreed.

Which makes it even more suspicious re: why we are ‘assisting’

[meregreen]

4 hours ago, Thug said:

Agreed.

Which makes it even more suspicious re: why we are ‘assisting’

If we are. The close near proximity of Hamas, Isis, Hezbolah , Al Qaeda etc. All proscribed terrorist groups might have something to do with it.

[Thug]

18 minutes ago, meregreen said:

If we are. The close near proximity of Hamas, Isis, Hezbolah , Al Qaeda etc. All proscribed terrorist groups might have something to do with it.

You’ve just gone full circle.

You said Mossad didn’t need any help, more than capable. Best IT in the world.

So once again, what are we doing there, our help isn’t needed according to you.  Or does intel only flow one way?

 

[meregreen]

22 minutes ago, Thug said:

You’ve just gone full circle.

You said Mossad didn’t need any help, more than capable. Best IT in the world.

So once again, what are we doing there, our help isn’t needed according to you.  Or does intel only flow one way?

 

You asked a hypothetical question, I gave you a hypothetical answer. The Israelis have one of the best intelligence networks in the world. It’s so good, they thought they were safe took their eye off the ball, and paid the price. Honestly, this country simply doesn’t have the clout it once had. The real power is the USA. I can well believe they aid Israel, why wouldn’t they?

[Thug]

Just now, meregreen said:

You asked a hypothetical question, I gave you a hypothetical answer. The Israelis have one of the best intelligence networks in the world. It’s so good, they thought they were safe took their eye off the ball, and paid the price. Honestly, this country simply doesn’t have the clout it once had. The real power is the USA. I can well believe they aid Israel, why wouldn’t they?

I didn’t disagree with any of that.

So you are agreeing with me, that the UK ‘assistance’ is not required and they do not need to be there.

Excellent.

 

[meregreen]

17 minutes ago, Thug said:

I didn’t disagree with any of that.

So you are agreeing with me, that the UK ‘assistance’ is not required and they do not need to be there.

Excellent.

 

Which kind of makes all the hooha about this country’s stance rather academic. The Israelis don’t need us. And won’t take a blind bit of notice about our opinion. They’re set on destroying Hamas. And only one country has any sway over them, and it sure ain’t us.

[omariqy]

13 minutes ago, meregreen said:

Which kind of makes all the hooha about this country’s stance rather academic. The Israelis don’t need us. And won’t take a blind bit of notice about our opinion. They’re set on destroying all of Gaza. And only one country has any sway over them, and it sure ain’t us.

Fixed for ya.