DCJonah Posted September 17, 2023 Share Posted September 17, 2023 2 minutes ago, El Segundo said: My critical thinking on the situation is that accusations are just that, they are not evidence and they are not proof, and I choose not to judge or condemn someone based on them alone, simply because I find him, his past behaviour or his views distasteful. I don't subscribe to guilty by public opinion, guilty by accusation, guilty because someone's a bit of an arse, guilty by the rule of "no smoke without fire" or guilty until proven innocent. I prefer to keep an open mind, let the evidence be revealed and let any proceedings play out. Then an informed opinion can be formed. Evidence like medical records from a rape crisis centre and text messages apologising to a message saying no means no? Or a 31 year old dating a school girl? I also believe in critical thinking. Thinking about why multiple women would say these things? About why these accusations have occurred over such a long period of time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCJonah Posted September 17, 2023 Share Posted September 17, 2023 2 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: Read my post above jonah. We are just doing round in circles not getting anywhere its pointless us continuing thia discussion I mean it's a simple question. Do you believe them or not? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Segundo Posted September 17, 2023 Share Posted September 17, 2023 23 minutes ago, bobzy said: The most galling thing in rape cases is people obsessed with "evidence". There's barely any. Ever. It's why rape convictions are so few and far between. Yet people insist on hard evidence. So if someone randomly accused you of rape tomorrow, but had no evidence, you'd happily support a conviction for yourself based purely on the accusation? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted September 17, 2023 Share Posted September 17, 2023 5 minutes ago, El Segundo said: My critical thinking on the situation is that accusations are just that, they are not evidence and they are not proof, and I choose not to judge or condemn someone based on them alone, simply because I find him, his past behaviour or his views distasteful. I don't subscribe to guilty by public opinion, guilty by accusation, guilty because someone's a bit of an arse, guilty by the rule of "no smoke without fire" or guilty until proven innocent. I prefer to keep an open mind, let the evidence be revealed and let any proceedings play out. Then an informed opinion can be formed. So what would allow you to judge for yourself that he may have done some of the things he’s accused of? Because the evidence presented is pretty damning. Critical thinking isn’t looking at damning evidence and then saying ‘no that’s not true at all’ despite you thinking it is Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted September 17, 2023 Share Posted September 17, 2023 (edited) 6 minutes ago, DCJonah said: I mean it's a simple question. Do you believe them or not? Again read my post above its answered there my position its even simplier than answeribg the question again Edited September 17, 2023 by Demitri_C Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted September 17, 2023 Share Posted September 17, 2023 9 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: Goodness me this is painfal it really is So your defending greenwood now ? You say Greenwood is vermin despite accusations being just that. Accusations. He wasn’t charged with anything which is your deciding factor on whether Brand did anything wrong or not. Whats the difference between the 2 cases in your view? powerful men - check strong evidence - check lack or charges - check publicly accused - check Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted September 17, 2023 Share Posted September 17, 2023 3 minutes ago, El Segundo said: So if someone randomly accused you of rape tomorrow, but had no evidence, you'd happily support a conviction for yourself based purely on the accusation? Why do you keep saying there is no evidence when there is a tonne of damning evidence? Is this critical thinking on display right now? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jareth Posted September 17, 2023 Share Posted September 17, 2023 1 hour ago, Rugeley Villa said: You can’t say that about people just because you think he’s a nasty piece of work He’s knocking off 16 year olds as part of a hobby. Of course he’ll push it and go younger if he can. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted September 17, 2023 Share Posted September 17, 2023 1 minute ago, El Segundo said: So if someone randomly accused you of rape tomorrow, but had no evidence, you'd happily support a conviction for yourself based purely on the accusation? Does anyone know anyone thats been falsely accused of rape? I do and it almost ruined this persons life. He lost his job, his marriage fell apart ans hw almost took his own life. The woman got a couple months for perjury and was out. This is why what el segundo is right when you must look at the evidence. You cant just convict someone without the evidence and just accusation. Im not talking about brand im talking about generally here. I havent seen the documentary yet with brand as i been out all day but i will watch it tomorrow as im interwsted in this one key but of evidence where it was reported years ago. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted September 17, 2023 Share Posted September 17, 2023 Just now, Demitri_C said: Does anyone know anyone thats been falsely accused of rape? I do and it almost ruined this persons life. He lost his job, his marriage fell apart ans hw almost took his own life. The woman got a couple months for perjury and was out. This is why what el segundo is right when you must look at the evidence. You cant just convict someone without the evidence and just accusation. Im not talking about brand im talking about generally here. I havent seen the documentary yet with brand as i been out all day but i will watch it tomorrow as im interwsted in this one key but of evidence where it was reported years ago. So your entire position today was without even watching it or reading about it? My word. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leemond2008 Posted September 17, 2023 Share Posted September 17, 2023 This whole thread is painful, Some people think he is guilty and understand that a conviction is unlikely with the evidence available therefore are willing to have him tried by public opinion which will lead to him being blacklisted and effectively cancelled Other people think that he is most likely guilty but would like more substantial proof and would prefer to see him actually convicted for what he's done. It is never an easy situation when dealing with rape or sexual assault allegations, I don't think that any body is outright defending him here. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seat68 Posted September 17, 2023 Share Posted September 17, 2023 15 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: If they wanted brand punished for his crimes they will come forward so the police investigate him and put him behind bars if he did these heinous crimes. I have not alluded to not believing them at all in that post. Nothing will happen to him if they dont come forward if they are making it up they will know the police are specialists in these cases. You aren't being completely clear. If the victims wanted Brand punished they should come forward and put him behind bars, even though less than 1% of rapes result in a conviction. You did not allude to not believing them, then you immediately say if they are making it up the police will know. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted September 17, 2023 Share Posted September 17, 2023 Just now, leemond2008 said: This whole thread is painful, Some people think he is guilty and understand that a conviction is unlikely with the evidence available therefore are willing to have him tried by public opinion which will lead to him being blacklisted and effectively cancelled Other people think that he is most likely guilty but would like more substantial proof and would prefer to see him actually convicted for what he's done. It is never an easy situation when dealing with rape or sexual assault allegations, I don't think that any body is outright defending him here. It really is painfal i agree wholeheartedly and thats exactly the way i see it Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted September 17, 2023 Share Posted September 17, 2023 (edited) Nobody wants him tried based on an accusation FFS. There is evidence he’s committed crimes, based on both the Times article and the documentary. But it’s looking like women won’t press charges. This could be for a number of reasons, mostly likely low conviction rate, status of the accused, ability of the accused to lawyer up and put it down immediately. So what are the options? Say it’s all a hit piece and he did nothing wrong because he isn’t charged? or look at the evidence, which despite our critical thinker star pupil’s best efforts in this thread, does exist, and make our own judgements on his guilt? Edited September 17, 2023 by StefanAVFC Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted September 17, 2023 Share Posted September 17, 2023 1 minute ago, Seat68 said: You aren't being completely clear. If the victims wanted Brand punished they should come forward and put him behind bars, even though less than 1% of rapes result in a conviction. You did not allude to not believing them, then you immediately say if they are making it up the police will know. Wheres this 1% data can you show me this? How can i say i believe them when i havent seen the evidence or dont know enough about the accusations? I mean unlike you who seems to have him guilty (god help us if any of us are innocent and some of you are on a jury you would probably want us beheaded) So brands definitely guilty in your eyes? How anyone say 100% he is without a court hearing? Shall we just throw him in jail and any other person who is accused of rape? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Segundo Posted September 17, 2023 Share Posted September 17, 2023 1 minute ago, DCJonah said: Evidence like medical records from a rape crisis centre and text messages apologising to a message saying no means no? Or a 31 year old dating a school girl? I also believe in critical thinking. Thinking about why multiple women would say these things? About why these accusations have occurred over such a long period of time. As I said previously the rape accusation is the exception in that there appears to actually be some evidence and if that turns out to be the case then it should be his downfall. Your question related to why there are multiple accusers. One of those is a 16 year old he had a relationship with, another is by his former assistant who felt uncomfortable that he would hang around in his tighty-whiteys. A 31 year old dating a 16 year old may be distasteful, but in the eyes of the law, it' between two consenting adults. It's an accusation of morally questionable behaviour, not of a crime. The second "accusation" is just ridiculous. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted September 17, 2023 Share Posted September 17, 2023 Ok found some data about the rapes as i was generally asking and its 2 in 100 So yeah it is just under 2% thats mental Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
El Segundo Posted September 17, 2023 Share Posted September 17, 2023 16 minutes ago, StefanAVFC said: So what would allow you to judge for yourself that he may have done some of the things he’s accused of? Because the evidence presented is pretty damning. Critical thinking isn’t looking at damning evidence and then saying ‘no that’s not true at all’ despite you thinking it is Critical thinking is asking if the evidence is damning or not, or even if there is any evidence. From what I saw, apart from the medical records backing up the rape claim, there is no other evidence apart from the accusations themselves. And as I've said if that proves to be valid then he should pay for it. I'm just not going to decide one way or the other based on what I've been told or shown thus far. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Seat68 Posted September 17, 2023 Share Posted September 17, 2023 5 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: Ok found some data about the rapes as i was generally asking and its 2 in 100 So yeah it is just under 2% thats mental In 2022 it was less than 1%. If you Google rape conviction rates UK that will give you the government's scorecards. It's been stated a number of times about the low conviction rates. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leemond2008 Posted September 17, 2023 Share Posted September 17, 2023 7 minutes ago, Demitri_C said: How anyone say 100% he is without a court hearing? Shall we just throw him in jail and any other person who is accused of rape? I think this is where you are going wrong @Demitri_C the argument is that this won't be going to to a court hearing as it stands at the moment, I believe that more people will come forward and he will end up being charged with "something" at least, but what people are saying is that this investigation, regardless of a court case or not has showed him to be a word removed of the highest order. People are thinking that you are saying that he should just be able to carry on with his day to day life as if nothing has happened until he is charged and that people shouldn't think any less of him until/if he is convicted, I know that isn't what you are getting at but I think the whole "he needs an actual conviction" is where people think that you are not believing the women that have come forward so far. That's what I'm getting anyways. I'm dipping out of this thread for a bit now, its going round in circles. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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