Unai Emery

[TRO]

8 minutes ago, Teale's 'tache said:

I think there are numerous factors at play here, and there have been many high-scoring defeats this season of very good teams, we aren't alone in this.

It seems when we, Newcastle, Spurs, Brighton etc. lose, it's often a big loss. When it goes wrong it really goes wrong for all of us, and that's because we all play high-risk tactics. We have to take more risks to compete with those above us.

I think there's also a confidence issue, some mental fatigue could be playing a part, obviously missing big players for any amount of time will cause issues. The inexperience of being in this position may well be contributing as well (for the players, not Emery). Teams have changed how they play against us and we have to adapt to that. Notably, we seem to be catching less offside, not unexpected with the constant change of personnel at the back, but it also teams are a bit wiser to the pitfalls now.

I also think Emery has got a few things wrong recently, and he's admitted as much himself, maybe a bit of overthinking has been going on. We seem to be quite selective in the opponents we deem worthwhile to press further up the pitch, it's all risk-reward, but get it wrong and you can look a bit silly.

I'm not overly concerned, getting Torres back will be a big boost, as will getting Konsa back, and Diaby seems like he might be on the cusp of getting back to some form too.

Adapting to the current circumstances is a lot easier when you have your better players available. I also think Emery will settle down a bit once this blip is over.

A really good post, and I accept with interest, your reasoning.

Good points to ponder.

 

[Teale's 'tache]

Just now, TRO said:

That was one or two games, it wasn't a major issue, because very few teams do that.

I accept the emboldened bit, but that is one of the factors, I consider to be an issue.

Losing 4 first team defenders, is not ideal, but Mings has been missing all season, Pau is more noted for his progressive passes, and Konsa has only just become injured, he played against Newcastle, which showed similar deficiencies.

I am not blaming Unai's tactics.....but if you are telling me we can afford, to ignore the oppositions actions, buy not stopping their intiatives, Then we are in for a big shock, mark my words.

I don't think we ignore the opponents' tactics, but notably during this run we have less 'control' as Emery calls it, we aren't keeping the ball as well, we are losing the ball in poor situations, which causes the ideal transition for the opposition to hurt us, and right now hurting us they are. Our possession stats are less dominant recently, and the more an opponent has the ball the more scope they have to attack you.

Why we have less control is probably down to a few things, but losing Torres is an obvious one.

[TRO]

1 minute ago, DJBOB said:

 

I mean that is your opinion but you'd be ignoring a decade of data of how Unai sets up his teams. He does not employ a gengenpress or a heavy counter press.

I don't think he has ever condoned his teams, to allow opponents to run riot either.

His face said it all during those games, he was not happy, so by deduction, they wasn't engaged in his instructions, is how I saw it.

I cannot accept players, meandering back, or failing to engage in challenges or picking up opponents in threatening positions, as a part of any managers tactics.

He may not of ever  been a student of the gegen press.....but how do you propose, we engage in turnovers, or do we just ignore them too....do we just passively wait for mistakes, or interceptions, to win the ball?

I am interested to know, how we are supposed to win back the intitative in a game?

[HKP90]

10 minutes ago, TRO said:

I simply, don't believe that.

but that is not saying, you are wrong.....However, Konsa played against Newcastle and Man U similar problems still existed.

The main issue, right now of defensive ineptitude, emanates primarily from Midfield.....too many goals against, derive from Midfield....that is not saying ALL goals.

We played Carlos in defence and Dendonker in for Kamara for the Man U game. Against Newcastle we had to play Konsa in the middle and Cash out wide who got mullered by Gordon and Burn. In neither game did we have Pau or Tielemans. 

I see your points, but we've not had a first team defence and/or midfield now for weeks. Most of our defensive prowess came from offside traps and the high line. Our first teamers are just far far superior at that than our reserves. Also, when Pau is in we have a much better out ball which stops our midfield dropping so deep and takes the pressure off them.  

Against Chelsea- Makeshift defence

Against Newcastle- Makeshift defence

Against Everton- Makeshift defence

Man U in December - Makeshift defence

The sheffield united game in december was when most on here have said we started to drop off. That was the first game after we lost Pau, who'd played in most of the previous games, including the wins against Arsenal and Man City. 

 

[TRO]

25 minutes ago, Jas10 said:

I’m going to he honest here and admit that… I think both Dougie and Bouba are both prone to occasional (not often/regular) complacency or being too relaxed at times… they are both exceptional players and I rate both of them very highly but… not at the point or not good enough (yet?) to just “coast” in games… and Bouba tends to make more costly mistakes or lose possession cheaply (again, occasionally) whereas Dougie just has quieter or more passive games… however, when the attitude and approach is right… and the focus and determination is there… they look formidable (amongst the very best in the league) and help us run rings around the opposition… we also have to take into  account that playing successive games in a short space of time will cause a degree of tiredness and it’s hard for any player to be at or near 100% in every game or consistently…

And this is not something that is unique to us or our individual players… I think it happens a lot…

I may be wrong but it’s just something I feel like I’ve picked up on or noticed since they’ve been with us together… but they’ve been brilliant for the most part and are essential to us and this team going forwards… I hope they’re here for the long term and keep developing and improving with us… they’re probably not the only “culprits” in that sense either but maybe it stands out because of how integral they are…

I’m just wondering whether some of our players might be getting a little carried away or “buying into the hype”… maybe not, but it’s seems like something worth considering… we can’t afford to get ahead of ourselves… there is a lot more work to be done…

As we know, the league is highly competitive and you will get caught out if there are lapses in concentration and mentality… a degree of aggression and tenacity is required too (which is why McGinn is so important to us but, again, he can’t do it in every game and everyone has to pitch in)…

It’s another side of the game that is really important… application and attitude…

I don’t think you can afford to be arrogant or feel superior unless you’ve had consistent success… not sure if any of this makes sense just trying to blurt out what is in my head here…

You can have all the talent in the world… but it requires application and the right mentality to thrive… and we’ve seen us get that formula right, many times (we have properly demolished some teams)… we saw it last season and we’ve seen it again now… it’s why we’re so high in the league…

it has to be a constant though… maybe a few humbling defeats will have corrected that and refocused us… I hope so… I’m sure Unai drills the same sort of message into the players (he often talks about being humble and generally plays down our standing and progress in public… which is wise… but at the same time, it’s obvious that he has a fire and determination and no lack of ambition)… it’s on the players to assert themselves in this manner…

As you say, we are a work in progress and the players are learning…we can’t expect not to stumble along the way… but I’m confident that we’ll get it right and become even more consistent and formidable.. I think we should be patient…

There again, another honest and open rendition.....without direct criticism, more observation, well said Jas.

There are so many great moments we have witnessed, this season.....but right now, we are talking about the drop in performance.

its comforting, when a debate can be had, without turning on the very folk, who have given us some great games....I hope UE can find a solution.

 

Edited February 9 by TRO

[DJBOB]

2 minutes ago, TRO said:

I don't think he has ever condoned his teams, to allow opponents to run riot either.

His face said it all during those games, he was not happy, so by deduction, they wasn't engaged in his instructions, is how I saw it.

I cannot accept players, meandering back, or failing to engage in challenges or picking up opponents in threatening positions, as a part of any managers tactics.

He may not of ever  been a student of the gegen press.....but how do you propose, we engage in turnovers, or do we just ignore them too....do we just passively wait for mistakes, or interceptions, to win the ball?

I am interested to know, how we are supposed to win back the intitative in a game?

I think as others have intimated, we have a pretty shit back line for how Unai wants to play. I think people can try to say "every club has injuries" or "we were poor before injuries" but the loss in various ways of Torres, Kamara, Digne, Konsa has damaged us this season.

From GW2 (Everton at home) to GW16 (Arsenal at home) - we played the same 4-6 defenders on the back line without only Diego and Cash coming in as tactical decisions. In that time, we collected 2.33 PPG - close to title wining form.

Since then, we have chopped and changed our back line and Kamara's absence and collected 11 points from 7 - 1.57 PPG - only about top half of the table form.

The data is there for all to see, but everyone's all about "we've been figured out!" or "Unai's got no plan B!" or "we need to change our system and press and take the initiative!"

No - we're injured and trying to graft the rest of these points until certain players come back. This is no different than any other club! Look at City without Rodri and KDB. Look at Arsenal without Saliba. Look at Liverpool without VVD.

When your most important players are out of the side, you will suffer. That is the very basics of our form.

[KentVillan]

15 minutes ago, TRO said:

That was one or two games, it wasn't a major issue, because very few teams do that.

I accept the emboldened bit, but that is one of the factors, I consider to be an issue.

Losing 4 first team defenders, is not ideal, but Mings has been missing all season, Pau is more noted for his progressive passes, and Konsa has only just become injured, he played against Newcastle, which showed similar deficiencies.

I am not blaming Unai's tactics.....but if you are telling me we can afford, to ignore the oppositions actions, buy not stopping their intiatives, Then we are in for a big shock, mark my words.

Pau isn't just a progressive passer, he's incredibly press resistant. He's the CB most comfortable with being pressed, turning out of trouble, and then springing an attack. It's no coincidence IMO that losing him has made teams more confident pressing us.

I feel like you're equating press resistance with being defensively solid and hard working. For me it's the ability to keep the ball under pressure without panicking, and play good progressive passes. That's what scares teams into *not* pressing. When you lose that passing quality at the back, the risk/reward of swarming the defence changes completely.

Earlier in the season / last season, teams that tried to press us were getting punished, because Unai was really the master of humiliating the press. I think he's lost some of the players (Torres, Buendia, and now Konsa) who really helped him achieve that, and the central midfielders, who are also instrumental in this tactic, all look knackered atm.

One mistake I do think Unai makes at times is not rotating key players off early when a game is clearly dead (in either direction). That may be something he needs to consider. We're all haunted by the MON season where we just ran out of gas. I don't think Unai is that type of manager, but he may be overworking certain players atm.

[DJBOB]

8 minutes ago, HKP90 said:

We played Carlos in defence and Dendonker in for Kamara for the Man U game. Against Newcastle we had to play Konsa in the middle and Cash out wide who got mullered by Gordon and Burn. In neither game did we have Pau or Tielemans. 

I see your points, but we've not had a first team defence and/or midfield now for weeks. Most of our defensive prowess came from offside traps and the high line. Our first teamers are just far far superior at that than our reserves. Also, when Pau is in we have a much better out ball which stops our midfield dropping so deep and takes the pressure off them.  

Against Chelsea- Makeshift defence

Against Newcastle- Makeshift defence

Against Everton- Makeshift defence

Man U in December - Makeshift defence

The sheffield united game in december was when most on here have said we started to drop off. That was the first game after we lost Pau, who'd played in most of the previous games, including the wins against Arsenal and Man City. 

 

Clear and concise.

We were fortunate to be almost injury/fitness free for our defense for almost 14 matches in a row.

That we are now suffering with a back line that hasn't played more than two matches in a row should be no surprise.

[Vive_La_Villa]

We need some word limits  

To summarise we have a small squad and injuries to one or two key players along with having to play other players every minute of every game is taking its toll. 
 

Emery has to somehow deal with it.

Edited February 9 by Vive_La_Villa

[Jas10]

16 minutes ago, TRO said:

There again, another honest and open rendition.....without direct criticism, more observation, well said Jas.

There are so many great moments we have witnessed, this season.....but right now, we are talking about the drop in performance.

its comforting, when a debate can be had, without turning on the very folk, who have given us some great games....I hope UE can find a solution.

 

[TRO]

8 minutes ago, HKP90 said:

We played Carlos in defence and Dendonker in for Kamara for the Man U game. Against Newcastle we had to play Konsa in the middle and Cash out wide who got mullered by Gordon and Burn. In neither game did we have Pau or Tielemans. 

I see your points, but we've not had a first team defence and/or midfield now for weeks. Most of our defensive prowess came from offside traps and the high line. Our first teamers are just far far superior at that than our reserves. Also, when Pau is in we have a much better out ball which stops our midfield dropping so deep and takes the pressure off them.  

Against Chelsea- Makeshift defence

Against Newcastle- Makeshift defence

Against Everton- Makeshift defence

Man U in December - Makeshift defence

The sheffield united game in december was when most on here have said we started to drop off. That was the first game after we lost Pau, who'd played in most of the previous games, including the wins against Arsenal and Man City. 

 

good response...interesting

 

[Jas10]

[Jas10]

https://www.avfc.co.uk/video/dbf19f02-0b2c-46b1-ae5a-fddb729bc748

Edited February 9 by Jas10

[HKP90]

12 minutes ago, Jas10 said:

https://www.avfc.co.uk/video/dbf19f02-0b2c-46b1-ae5a-fddb729bc748

If there is one team in this whole league I would like us to beat, just one, It's Man U. Bunch of sham, cheating prima donnas. 

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaase!

[Jas10]

Just now, HKP90 said:

If there is one team in this whole league I would like us to beat, just one, It's Man U. Bunch of sham, cheating prima donnas. 

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaase!

Couldn’t agree more, I’ve detested them all my life

[TRO]

19 hours ago, KentVillan said:

Pau isn't just a progressive passer, he's incredibly press resistant. He's the CB most comfortable with being pressed, turning out of trouble, and then springing an attack. It's no coincidence IMO that losing him has made teams more confident pressing us.

I feel like you're equating press resistance with being defensively solid and hard working. For me it's the ability to keep the ball under pressure without panicking, and play good progressive passes. That's what scares teams into *not* pressing. When you lose that passing quality at the back, the risk/reward of swarming the defence changes completely.

Earlier in the season / last season, teams that tried to press us were getting punished, because Unai was really the master of humiliating the press. I think he's lost some of the players (Torres, Buendia, and now Konsa) who really helped him achieve that, and the central midfielders, who are also instrumental in this tactic, all look knackered atm.

One mistake I do think Unai makes at times is not rotating key players off early when a game is clearly dead (in either direction). That may be something he needs to consider. We're all haunted by the MON season where we just ran out of gas. I don't think Unai is that type of manager, but he may be overworking certain players atm.

I agree....but I am not trying to diasgree, when I say, Buendia has been missing all season, and Konsa has only just got injured.....there has been much water under the bridge, to question those observations....Right now, I think Midfield, is the go to issue, for whatever reason, we all have our opinions on that....I have even heard Alisha Lehman, offered in Dougie's defence.

but many press resistant players are also defensively solid and hardworking....we need to avoid, misinterpretations, through sound bites

Whatever, the reasoning or observation....we cannot allow teams to get at us with the ease and regularity as we do, of late.

Unai looked horrified, during that game, that suggested to me, his plan was not being followed.

I also agree, with you, there are simply not enough first team ready, alternatives to call on. That is something that won't fix the here and now, but something for the future.

I must stress, I am not suggesting a jaundiced view to UE.....I will excuse any manager, from making mistakes, when there are so many plates to spin.

Seeing issues is one thing......fixing  them is another.

 

Edited February 10 by TRO

[Jas10]

4 minutes ago, HKP90 said:

If there is one team in this whole league I would like us to beat, just one, It's Man U. Bunch of sham, cheating prima donnas. 

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaase!

A most satisfying day:

 

[TRO]

Despite, my comments on here....I don't want Unai to deviate from his beliefs.

That does not mean, I am conceding on points I raise....its just differences of opinion.

He is currently sitting on a 58% win ratio from 62 games....so how can i ask him to change? I wouldn't want to, but we are WIP too, so maybe he is not happy with what he is seeing, but he can't say that in the open.

I respect his football philosophy, at the same time of respecting my own views of the variants of the game.

Managers have their way of playing, and that varies from manager to manager, so who is right, and who is wrong....that is determined by results.

so far, so good......but the concerns are about games, not seasons.....we must not lose sight of that.

[Guardian_Angel_M]

13 minutes ago, HKP90 said:

If there is one team in this whole league I would like us to beat, just one, It's Man U. Bunch of sham, cheating prima donnas. 

Pleeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeaaaaaaase!

x2

[TRO]

54 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

I think as others have intimated, we have a pretty shit back line for how Unai wants to play. I think people can try to say "every club has injuries" or "we were poor before injuries" but the loss in various ways of Torres, Kamara, Digne, Konsa has damaged us this season.

From GW2 (Everton at home) to GW16 (Arsenal at home) - we played the same 4-6 defenders on the back line without only Diego and Cash coming in as tactical decisions. In that time, we collected 2.33 PPG - close to title wining form.

Since then, we have chopped and changed our back line and Kamara's absence and collected 11 points from 7 - 1.57 PPG - only about top half of the table form.

The data is there for all to see, but everyone's all about "we've been figured out!" or "Unai's got no plan B!" or "we need to change our system and press and take the initiative!"

No - we're injured and trying to graft the rest of these points until certain players come back. This is no different than any other club! Look at City without Rodri and KDB. Look at Arsenal without Saliba. Look at Liverpool without VVD.

When your most important players are out of the side, you will suffer. That is the very basics of our form.

Your principle has merit, but your example is questionable imo......and I don't want to appear argumentative, because that is not my intention...I am enjoying the debate, and opinions, yours too.

However, when those teams lose key players the edge does come off their game.....but our game has dipped dramatically, in selective games...Their dips do not seem to be so dramatic to me, as ours....that maybe an issue, in itself.

May I say, Data is very useful, but so is the "eye test"....Data does not detect lethargy, or belief or confidence....in fact, there are a few things in a game, that Data cannot be relied upon, but still significant to an outcome.

There are tangible reasons, why we have dipped dramatically in certain games.....and folk have fortunately offered their personal opinions, which is great.

Lets hope we can find a solution, before the season, dwindles away.