Team shape, tactics and personnel

[Jas10]

Just now, Tom13 said:

McGinn has got better at creating chances? Not sure.

Yep… through balls and threading through passes for players to either assist or score…

Just go back and look through some of our goals, inc last season. He was heavily involved. We struggle when John’s not “at it” too but seem more reliant on Luiz now…

His passing and composure has improved considerably…

[Rightdm00]

1 hour ago, OutByEaster? said:

Unai has us technically sound, if we were a boxer, Unai has our footwork down, our head movement is terrific, we can jab, counter and move.

Ollie gives us a massive right hand, he's a knockout punch on top of all the technical stuff Unai brings - it's a really good fit.

 

To keep the metaphor going, Diaby is the quick left jab and Bertie is the massive uppercut when all else fails and your on the roaps. 

[DJBOB]

This is the third game we have seen the Konsa-Diego-Pau back three, all away, and I’m still pretty mixed about it. 
 
I think Unai likes the defensive solidity of it but we seem a lot less snappy and I think that’s a result of the back line causing a lack of ball carriers in the team. Cash and McGinn are not 1v1 players so we struggle to pull teams around. 
 
I wonder if that is Unai’s purpose with this tweak. Defensive solidity but sacrificing almost any creativity. 
 
We did carve Burnley apart with this formation but I think that has more to do with Burnley. 

[TomC]

7 hours ago, DJBOB said:

This is the third game we have seen the Konsa-Diego-Pau back three, all away, and I’m still pretty mixed about it. 
 
I think Unai likes the defensive solidity of it but we seem a lot less snappy and I think that’s a result of the back line causing a lack of ball carriers in the team. Cash and McGinn are not 1v1 players so we struggle to pull teams around. 
 
I wonder if that is Unai’s purpose with this tweak. Defensive solidity but sacrificing almost any creativity. 
 
We did carve Burnley apart with this formation but I think that has more to do with Burnley. 

I think the problem was less who was in the back 3 and more the fact that we essentially played a 6-2-2 in the first half. With everyone so deep, we didn't have many options when we won the ball back. It was hoof it forward and hope to hold it up until people can advance.

 

[ZL-]

On 09/10/2023 at 13:43, DJBOB said:

This is the third game we have seen the Konsa-Diego-Pau back three, all away, and I’m still pretty mixed about it. 
 
I think Unai likes the defensive solidity of it but we seem a lot less snappy and I think that’s a result of the back line causing a lack of ball carriers in the team. Cash and McGinn are not 1v1 players so we struggle to pull teams around. 
 
I wonder if that is Unai’s purpose with this tweak. Defensive solidity but sacrificing almost any creativity. 
 
We did carve Burnley apart with this formation but I think that has more to do with Burnley. 

I agree on it not looking our most fluid shape so far, but I'm pretty confident that it's Emery's first choice shape with Mings likely playing the Carlos role. Given the injuries to both we haven't been able to give the Konsa RB formation as much minutes as we'd like. 

Whilst we've been alternating the attack thrust between Digne and Cash I also feel the above formation is taking into account a more permanent LB attacking role with Moreno's return, who I'm sure we can agree finds that role far more comfortable than either Digne or Cash.

We'd then have Diaby for width on the right or Zaniolo if we needed Diaby more central. We'd then see Cash minutes reduced to when we wanted a more defensive RW option.

 

Will be interesting to see how this shape pans out, certainly is favourable to Carlos and Pau but feel one downside is shifting Konsa, our best defender by some margin, to a less natural position.

[CVByrne]

I think Emery has a strategy for away games based on keeping it tight in first half to not feed their crowd and concede first. 

They only had 3 shots and 0.22 xG in first half so it worked and we had 8 shots for 0.51xG.

The issue with the game was we conceded first which away from home is an issue in getting the 3 points. 

I think if we keep to this approach it's not a bad way to set up. We beat Chelsea with this approach. 

When we played Burnley we felt we would dominate so we set up differently 

[DJBOB]

Yeah I think it’s a very pragmatic approach away. But it was funny watching it as Wolves never wanted to commit any players when they had the ball so it was all very dry. 

[TRO]

On 09/10/2023 at 13:43, DJBOB said:

This is the third game we have seen the Konsa-Diego-Pau back three, all away, and I’m still pretty mixed about it. 
 
I think Unai likes the defensive solidity of it but we seem a lot less snappy and I think that’s a result of the back line causing a lack of ball carriers in the team. Cash and McGinn are not 1v1 players so we struggle to pull teams around. 
 
I wonder if that is Unai’s purpose with this tweak. Defensive solidity but sacrificing almost any creativity. 
 
We did carve Burnley apart with this formation but I think that has more to do with Burnley. 

I think until some of the players become more complete i.e can do both......that will be the case.

 

[TRO]

This is a genuine question, not loaded or contrived.....but I don't quite get this.....

We, from time to play, 4-2-3-1 or 5-3-2 sometimes 4-4-2 or 4-2-2-2 or even 6-2-2...forgive me if I've missed one.

So, on occasions when certain players are suggested, to join us, some say , he won't fit Unai's system.

To my understanding and many references, I have gleaned from fans....Unai changes all the time, even during a game. He adapts to the circumstances of the dynamics of the game.

so what is this system, these suggested players don't fit in to?

[MrBlack]

19 minutes ago, TRO said:

This is a genuine question, not loaded or contrived.....but I don't quite get this.....

We, from time to play, 4-2-3-1 or 5-3-2 sometimes 4-4-2 or 4-2-2-2 or even 6-2-2...forgive me if I've missed one.

So, on occasions when certain players are suggested, to join us, some say , he won't fit Unai's system.

To my understanding and many references, I have gleaned from fans....Unai changes all the time, even during a game. He adapts to the circumstances of the dynamics of the game.

so what is this system, these suggested players don't fit in to?

One that requires intelligence, an ability to control the ball in tight spaces and quickly find a teammate, and an ability to adapt I guess. 

If you're a rigid formation star, that only works playing one way, you probably don't fit the Emery system? Guessing here...

[DJBOB]

5 minutes ago, TRO said:

This is a genuine question, not loaded or contrived.....but I don't quite get this.....

We, from time to play, 4-2-3-1 or 5-3-2 sometimes 4-4-2 or 4-2-2-2 or even 6-2-2...forgive me if I've missed one.

So, on occasions when certain players are suggested, to join us, some say , he won't fit Unai's system.

To my understanding and many references, I have gleaned from fans....Unai changes all the time, even during a game. He adapts to the circumstances of the dynamics of the game.

so what is this system, these suggested players don't fit in to?

For me - 

Spine - two ball playing CB's, two all around CM's in the double pivot, all around CF - link up play, pressing, and finishing

Fullbacks - one more attacking and one more defensive to slot into a back 3 - but dependent on who the team has

Outside midfielders, second striker - this is where I think 'Unai' players need to be found. These are players that have to be positionally flexible. You can't just have a 'winger' or a 'wide forward' or a speciality player. A lot is asked of these positions - drop into a back 6, move into the midfield, play wide in the build up, play in the #8/#10 role in settled play. 

[TRO]

2 minutes ago, MrBlack said:

One that requires intelligence, an ability to control the ball in tight spaces and quickly find a teammate, and an ability to adapt I guess. 

If you're a rigid formation star, that only works playing one way, you probably don't fit the Emery system? Guessing here...

makes sense.

So its referencing their football savvy? ok.

[TRO]

2 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

For me - 

Spine - two ball playing CB's, two all around CM's in the double pivot, all around CF - link up play, pressing, and finishing

Fullbacks - one more attacking and one more defensive to slot into a back 3 - but dependent on who the team has

Outside midfielders, second striker - this is where I think 'Unai' players need to be found. These are players that have to be positionally flexible. You can't just have a 'winger' or a 'wide forward' or a speciality player. A lot is asked of these positions - drop into a back 6, move into the midfield, play wide in the build up, play in the #8/#10 role in settled play. 

Thanks.

but don't quite a few teams, play like that.

Edited October 10, 2023 by TRO

[DJBOB]

1 minute ago, TRO said:

Thanks.

but don't quite a few teams, play like that.

Yes - Unai's team set up is not too dissimilar from Pep, Arteta, Kompany, De Zerbi to an extent.

They all use similar set ups. Where Unai excels is the game to game management, fine tuning the tactics and players to each team.

But in general - you can't afford positionally inflexible players outside of the spine.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, CVByrne said:

I think Emery has a strategy for away games based on keeping it tight in first half to not feed their crowd and concede first. 

They only had 3 shots and 0.22 xG in first half so it worked and we had 8 shots for 0.51xG.

The issue with the game was we conceded first which away from home is an issue in getting the 3 points. 

I think if we keep to this approach it's not a bad way to set up. We beat Chelsea with this approach. 

When we played Burnley we felt we would dominate so we set up differently 

I think that relies heavily on the quality of player....but I also think the balance of a team is significant too.

[MrBlack]

 

12 minutes ago, TRO said:

makes sense.

So its referencing their football savvy? ok.

That's my guess yes. Moreno is an intelligent footballer. You can see why he signed him despite him being no younger than our current fairly decent left back.

Digne seems to shine more when crossing from deep and playing a very traditional wing back role. He does seem to have intelligence and has adapted to work in our system, so arguably an example of a player he wouldn't have signed but has proven to cope.

Whereas someone like (tin hat on) Bailey is struggling to make an impact and hasn't really shone. He's a kid that loves football, but maybe doesn't have the footballing intelligence to absorb all the information Emery is asking him to take on board. How you know what kind if player can do that before you sign them I'm not sure, but guess that's where monchi and a decent scouting network comes in. 

Zaniolo has a reputation of being a very capable and intelligent footballer, but with an injury history that is concerning. He seems to be trying too hard at the moment,  and isn't showing his intelligence consistently but I get the feeling it's there. After he scores and stops worrying about scoring I think he'll push on. 

I've got faith in Emery and in Monchi that if we do sign anyone in January it's more likely to be success than not. 

[DJBOB]

If you look at some of the 'Unai' players, that might make more sense.

McGinn - has played almost every position except for striker and CB.

Buendia - played as the second striker, LM, RM

Zaniolo - has played as the second striker, LM, RM

Cash - has played RB, RM, CB in the build up

JJ - predominantly LM, but has played RM as well

The spine doesn't move much, but every other player needs to be able to play different positions across the pitch.

[MrBlack]

7 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

If you look at some of the 'Unai' players, that might make more sense.

McGinn - has played almost every position except for striker and CB.

Buendia - played as the second striker, LM, RM

Zaniolo - has played as the second striker, LM, RM

Cash - has played RB, RM, CB in the build up

JJ - predominantly LM, but has played RM as well

The spine doesn't move much, but every other player needs to be able to play different positions across the pitch.

Good point,  and I'd say is different from the one I was making, but is definitley another factor.

E.g. Moreno hasn't played more than one position, but he definitely covers the whole left side of the pitch in a way that few left backs can. And we know he's an Emery player.

[CVByrne]

I now fully see the Emery masterplan. 4 4 2 block out of possession and wide midfielders can track runs of the opposition fullbacks and make a back 5/6 if needed. 

Move to a 3 3 4 or a 3 box 3 or 3 diamond 3 in possession with one FB and one wide mid making the width. So against Wolves it was Digne and Cash. I think Emery had planned for the sides in reverse in some games with Moreno in LM and Torres, Mings, Konsa, Cash as back 4. 

The flexibility around a core system with player profiles and a game plan for the opposition. We always defend with a 4 4 2, we play a high defensive line and we aren't an aggressive high press team, we want to draw teams onto us to create transitional moments to maximise our pace up top. 

[DJBOB]

45 minutes ago, CVByrne said:

I now fully see the Emery masterplan. 4 4 2 block out of possession and wide midfielders can track runs of the opposition fullbacks and make a back 5/6 if needed. 

Move to a 3 3 4 or a 3 box 3 or 3 diamond 3 in possession with one FB and one wide mid making the width. So against Wolves it was Digne and Cash. I think Emery had planned for the sides in reverse in some games with Moreno in LM and Torres, Mings, Konsa, Cash as back 4. 

The flexibility around a core system with player profiles and a game plan for the opposition. We always defend with a 4 4 2, we play a high defensive line and we aren't an aggressive high press team, we want to draw teams onto us to create transitional moments to maximise our pace up top. 

The thing I want to see most are adaptations of the 3box3 when facing low blocks or compact midblocks like we've already faced a few times this year. He used one solution by pushing TIelemans wide and right to create wide overloads against Zrinjski and I think that's probably going to be the way forward, risking some defensive solidity to generate more chances.