Russia and its “Special Operation” in Ukraine

[DewiMckay]

Since Ukraine became an independent state was who or what could potentially guarantee its security.

After the fall of USSR the Ukrainian government thought that it could defend itself. It had inherited some Soviet nuclear weapons, alas they failed to bypass the security locks integrated into the nuclear warheads.

Furthermore, there was pressure from the U.S. to get rid of those devices as the Ukraine at that time was prolific in selling its Soviet era weapons to various shady actors around the world. 

Ukraine, together with Belarus and Kazakhstan, was pressed to enter the Nuclear Non-Proliferation Treaty. In exchange it got the Budapest Memorandum, a weak promise of non-interference. 

Today -  

During the preparations of the NATO Vilnius summit (11–12 July 2023,), it had become clear that NAYO members would not agree to Ukraine's membership, U.S. President Biden suggested an alternative to NATO membership, a la the security US provides for Israel

“I don’t think it’s ready for membership in NATO,” Biden said of Ukraine. “I don’t think there is unanimity in NATO about whether or not to bring Ukraine into the NATO family now, at this moment, in the middle of a war.”

“And one of the things I indicated is, the United States would be ready to provide, while the process was going on, and that’s gonna take a while, to provide security a la the security we provide for Israel: providing the weaponry they need, the capacity to defend themselves,” Biden said, adding, “If there is an agreement, if there is a ceasefire, if there is a peace agreement.”
 

Further Listening from 2016 

 

[Mandy Lifeboats]

The Budapest Agreement was signed by Russia. It made a commitment to respect Ukraine's borders at that time.  Russia has broken that agreement twice.  

NATO rules on membership are very clear.  Countries cannot join during an active military conflict.  There is no way Ukraine could join without the rules being rewritten.  That will not happen.   

The UK & US also signed the Budapest Agreement.  That included an assurance that they would protect Ukraine's sovereignty if threatened by nukes.  France and China gave similar assurances outside the agreement.  

The current situation is not the West's fault.  It's Russia's fault.  They invaded.  Even if Ukraine wanted to become the 51st state of America - it does not justify invading Ukraine.  

 

 

[Mandy Lifeboats]

Its 1938 on the Villatalk Forum -  

"Poland is actually part of Germany.   Poland has also signed a military treaty with the UK.  If Hitler invades Poland- its Poland's fault.  But we shouldn't involve ourselves.  Opposing Hitler will just lengthen the war and lead to more deaths.  Its not like he's going to attack any other countries or commit genocide." 

[Chindie]

Ukraine didn't 'inherit' nuclear weapons. It had Soviet long range missiles it had no ability to use left in it's borders by the collapse of the USSR.

NATO isn't going to induct a member that immediately causes an invocation of Article 5, which is why the NATO membership rules specifically state they will not induct a member that is in a conflict.

Russia started this war and the culpability lays firmly in Moscow.

[Genie]

30 minutes ago, Chindie said:

Ukraine didn't 'inherit' nuclear weapons. It had Soviet long range missiles it had no ability to use left in it's borders by the collapse of the USSR.

NATO isn't going to induct a member that immediately causes an invocation of Article 5, which is why the NATO membership rules specifically state they will not induct a member that is in a conflict.

Russia started this war and the culpability lays firmly in Moscow.

There’s also the issue of next time someone gets into a fight with their neighbour they’ll want to join NATO to get it sorted out. Maybe current members will leave the pact, and try to rejoin if they need help. It would fall apart.

 

[DewiMckay]

4 hours ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

The current situation is not the West's fault.  It's Russia's fault.  They invaded.  Even if Ukraine wanted to become the 51st state of America - it does not justify invading Ukraine.  

3 hours ago, Chindie said:

Russia started this war and the culpability lays firmly in Moscow.

A country has clear red lines for instance America has the Monro Doctrum  this was used in the Cuban Missle Crisis  - So when a Super Power feels threatend, it will react. Consider if China moved miltary bases to Canda and Mexico, what would America do?  

The West has been openly advocating for Ukraine to join NATO Bucharest Summit 2008 (3rd April) . Russia informed NATO this has crossed thier red line - NATO expansion Eastwards was a direct threat to thier security, this was made clear to both NATO /Ukraine. v

Unfortunately,  Ukraine is split country, Russian speakers in the East and Ukraine speakers in West, clearly shown when electrions have taken place.  Russia felt it's Russian speakers were being discriminated by the Ukraine Goverment (see Stephan Bandera - Views) 

In my view Russia is a Super Power, it is rich with resources which it can sell to Europe (Oil, Gas & Nuclear materials). It has the abliity to adapt. Which countries has been more effected by sancations imposed on Russia?  

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by DewiMckay
Grammer

[Mr_Dogg]

Russia simply projects itself as a super power. The GDP of California is twice as big as the GDP of Russia.

[chrisp65]

2 minutes ago, DewiMckay said:

A country has clear red lines for instance America has the Monro Doctrum  this was used in the Cuban Missle Crisis  - So when a Super Power feels threatend, it will react. Consider if China moved miltary bases to Canda and Mexico, what would America do?  

The West has been openly advocating for Ukraine to join NATO Bucharest Summit 2008 (3rd April) . Russia informed NATO thier crossed thier red line - NATO expansion Eastwards was a direct threat to thier security, this was made clear to both NATO /Ukraine. v

Unfortunately,  Ukraine is split country, Russian speakers in the East and Ukraine speakers in West, clearly shown when electrions have taken place.  Russia felt it's Russian speakers were being discriminated by the Ukraine Goverment (see Stephan Bandera - Views) 

In my view Russia is a Super Power, it is rich with resources which it can sell to Europe (Oil, Gas & Nuclear materials). It has the abliity to adapt. Which countries has been more effected by sancations imposed on Russia?  

 

In the Cuban Missile Crisis the U.S. knew it had a problem because it had placed nuclear missiles in Turkey and internal documents showed that at several points in time they were willing to trade these and take them back out. That the lack of communication internally in the US, internally in the USSR, and externally between both of them was so poor back then lead to Khrushchev blinking first was as much luck as judgement.

Russia cannot dictate to other sovereign nations what allies they can have, that’s not how it works.

Quisling excuses for Russian aggression haven’t had much of a hearing, it’s almost like the act of bombing civilian targets and attempting to starve people has drowned out their weasle words.

Perhaps Russia should also take back the bits of Finland where tens of thousands of Russian speakers live?

Ethnic Russians make up a quarter of Estonia, should they invade?

 

[fleksnes]

26 minutes ago, DewiMckay said:

In my view Russia is a Super Power,

It isnt. It is a corrupt country,run by a mafia-like group of people. 

[DewiMckay]

28 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Russia cannot dictate to other sovereign nations what allies they can have, that’s not how it works.

Respectfully, I disagree. Consider sanactions, these have been used to change a countries direction. Start a colour revolution? Direct Miltary internention isn't the only option. 

28 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Quisling excuses for Russian aggression haven’t had much of a hearing, it’s almost like the act of bombing civilian targets and attempting to starve people has drowned out their weasle words.

Ukraine was bombing civillians in the Dombass /Crimea region. Moreover Ukraine was putting rocket systems in urban areas.  Drone attacks in Moscow. 

28 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Perhaps Russia should also take back the bits of Finland where tens of thousands of Russian speakers live?

Perhaps they could have a flour party with Sanna Marin 

 

Edited July 30, 2023 by DewiMckay

[DewiMckay]

10 minutes ago, fleksnes said:

It isnt. It is a corrupt country,run by a mafia-like group of people. 

Europe, EU isn't full of corruption.  However, West did Putin a favour, when they confiscated all Russian oligarchs money, boats and houses.  

Edited July 30, 2023 by DewiMckay
Context

[Captain_Townsend]

4 hours ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

The Budapest Agreement was signed by Russia. It made a commitment to respect Ukraine's borders at that time.  Russia has broken that agreement twice.  

NATO rules on membership are very clear.  Countries cannot join during an active military conflict.  There is no way Ukraine could join without the rules being rewritten.  That will not happen.   

The UK & US also signed the Budapest Agreement.  That included an assurance that they would protect Ukraine's sovereignty if threatened by nukes.  France and China gave similar assurances outside the agreement.  

The current situation is not the West's fault.  It's Russia's fault.  They invaded.  Even if Ukraine wanted to become the 51st state of America - it does not justify invading Ukraine.  

 

 

Agree 100%. Unfortunately Putin is lucky to have millions of useful idiots in the west who spread his propaganda on account of their lazy anti western reflex. 

[fleksnes]

11 minutes ago, DewiMckay said:

However, West did Putin a favour,

Yup. He looks really happe these days having to send Sjojgu to North Korea to beg for weapons,and having all of his 17 african friends visiting. Makes him look like a real powerhouse,isnt it. And not to mention his desperation to get Russia back into SWIFT.

[DewiMckay]

1 minute ago, fleksnes said:

having all of his 17 african friends visiting. Makes him look like a real powerhouse,isnt it. And not to mention his desperation to get Russia back into SWIFT.

As part of the Ukraine Gain Deal, a Russian Agricultural bank was allowed to join swift, guess what, the EU didn't press the button. 

Russian - Africa Confence,  17 Leaders attended, however a further 19 countries sent ambassadors, not too shabby considering Russia circumstances.  Meanwhile in Niger. 

13 minutes ago, fleksnes said:

He looks really happe these days having to send Sjojgu to North Korea

Source?  America is sending cluster bombs to Ukriane. as the West is unable to meet Ukraine need of 155mm shells.

However South Korea has lent 500,000 rounds to US

 

 

[Mandy Lifeboats]

8 hours ago, DewiMckay said:

 

Ukraine was bombing civillians in the Dombass /Crimea region. Moreover Ukraine was putting rocket systems in urban areas.  Drone attacks in Moscow. 

 

 

Ukraine was attacking Russian forces that had invaded the Donbas which is part of Ukraine. 

Ukraine was placing rocket systems in Ukraine. What the hell has that got to do with Russia. 

Russia murdered the passengers of a civilian airliner flying over Ukraine.  They even boasted about it when they thought it was a Ukrainian military plane. 

There were no drone attacks in Moscow until Russia invaded Ukraine for the second time and began commiting genocide.  

It amazes me that anyone can defend Russia's actions.  If they are justified in attacking Ukraine because they want to be in NATO why shouldn't NATO attack Belarus because they want to be  allied to Russia? 

 

Edited July 31, 2023 by Mandy Lifeboats
Spelling mistake

[fleksnes]

5 minutes ago, DewiMckay said:

America

Like any other Russian troll,all you have to talk about is the evil West,and USA,so i think i will let you blabber on without me. Russia started a war. They are a corrupt mafiarun semi-dicatorship. That is the bottom line here. What USA,or the West do,or dont,did,or didnt have nothing to do with how this started. This is Russia invading another country. 

[Mandy Lifeboats]

7 minutes ago, DewiMckay said:

America is sending cluster bombs to Ukriane. as the West is unable to meet Ukraine need of 155mm shells.

However South Korea has lent 500,000 rounds to US

 

 

1. Russia has been using cluster bombs since the start of the conflict.  Russia has not banned these weapons.  They are now crying because Ukraine is retaliating with the same weapons that they use. 

2. South Korea can give weapons to Ukraine.  If Russia doesn't want to be hit by those weapons then they should get the hell out of Ukraine. 

[Mandy Lifeboats]

1 hour ago, DewiMckay said:

 

In my view Russia is a Super Power, it is rich with resources which it can sell to Europe (Oil, Gas & Nuclear materials).

 

The USSR was bigger than Russia.  It had more gas, more oil, more land, more population and a bigger army. 

We killed it with 40 years of financial warfare.   

Most of the Warsaw Pact countries joined NATO because they feared the horror of being "liberated" by Russia again.  

In 1939 Russia was allied with the Nazis.  They made a military pact and invaded Poland together. Russia slaughtered thousands of unarmed Poles in the Katyn massacres.  Russia subsequently blamed the Nazis for commiting those attocities.

Its the biggest country in the world with a proportionately tiny population.  It should stick within its own borders.  

[DewiMckay]

3 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

Ukraine was placing rocket systems in Ukraine. What the hell has that got to do with Russia. 

The Geneva Conventions.  

8 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

It amazes me that anyone can defend Russia's actions.

 I fear that people are not fully aware of the history and I'm trying to offer sources. 

 

9 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

NATO why shouldn't NATO attack Belarus because they want to be an allied to Russia? 

NATO offered Belarus a deal in 2004 - Russia reacted by cutting thier supply of gas in short Ecomomic Sanctions. 

 

26 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

Russia murdered the passengers of a civilian airliner flying over Ukraine.  They even boasted about it when they thought it was a Ukrainian military plane. 

Do you have a source?  

[DewiMckay]

39 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

Most of the Warsaw Pact countries joined NATO because they feared the horror of being "liberated" by Russia again.  

Russia was weak it was on the verge of collpasing.  Don't blame them.  However counties that arrived in the first tranche of NATO expansion, were not on Russia Borders.  

 

39 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

In 1939 Russia was allied with the Nazis.  They made a military pact and invaded Poland together. Russia slaughtered thousands of unarmed Poles in the Katyn massacres.  Russia subsequently blamed the Nazis for commiting those attocities.

True, Starlin was  a monster.  However I wouldn't compare Putin to Starlin. 

 

39 minutes ago, Mandy Lifeboats said:

Its the biggest country in the world with a proportionately tiny population.  It should stick within its own borders. 

Agreed.  But we shouldn't be poking the bear.  

Edited July 31, 2023 by DewiMckay
Grammer