The Chairman Mao resembling, Monarchy hating, threat to Britain, Labour Party thread

[darrenm]

1 minute ago, blandy said:

Yes you did. It was the list you posted from Tory Fibs - as I said - you linked to it. I'm not saying you wrote it. It is a list ONLY of good things written by Tory fibs. There are loads of similar ones out there, all with the same argument

I'm not sure this is really getting us anywhere. You said

" but my point was that people use a record ONLY of good things to dismiss accusations of other, bad things."

So because I used the list as a record, surely I'm the object here? You may not have meant it that way, but that's how it reads. Unless you're referring to the Tory Fibs Twitter account. If so, how could you possibly know they don't also acknowledge JC's failures?

[chrisp65]

 

 

Neil Coyle, Labour MP for Bermondsey.

[WhatAboutTheFinish]

26 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

 

 

Neil Coyle, Labour MP for Bermondsey.

Bang out of order! I can’t just sit back and let JRM be abused like that. I mean, most of the adjectives I can roll with...but fat?!!

[chrisp65]

4 minutes ago, WhatAboutTheFinish said:

Bang out of order! I can’t just sit back and let JRM be abused like that. I mean, most of the adjectives I can roll with...but fat?!!

It has that 11:36pm second bottle of wine vibe about it. 

[HanoiVillan]

@magnkarl I am still waiting for you to provide some evidence of Jon Lansman 'questioning the loyalty of British Jews' at multiple Momentum rallies. Do you have any idea when you might be able to supply that?

[magnkarl]

5 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

@magnkarl I am still waiting for you to provide some evidence of Jon Lansman 'questioning the loyalty of British Jews' at multiple Momentum rallies. Do you have any idea when you might be able to supply that?

I've trawled through my footage from said events but haven't actually filmed Jon. His words have one several occasions been similar to this from Corbyn. I'll keep looking. You can disregard it as personal experience if you'd like seeing as I can't find it.

 

[HanoiVillan]

1 minute ago, magnkarl said:

I've trawled through my footage from said events but haven't actually filmed Jon. His words have one several occasions been similar to this from Corbyn. I'll keep looking. You can disregard it as personal experience if you'd like seeing as I can't find it.

 

Hang on, wait a minute. That's a video of Corbyn making an arguably ill-judged comment about a group of 'zionists' - not 'Jews' - in an audience not understanding irony. He is not 'questioning the loyalty of British Jews', and it cannot remotely be paraphrased as that.

You now say 'His words have one several occasions been similar to this from Corbyn' but your previous accusation was about 'questioning the loyalty of British Jews' (the implication being all of them), not about ironic humour. This distinction is critically important, because as I'm sure you know there is a long and very racist historic trope about Jewish people not being loyal to the country they reside in, a trope which was used to justify lots of pogroms and ethnic violence across Europe for several centuries. Most normal people would regard playing into that trope as much more serious than Corbyn's remarks in that video, however ill-judged they may have been.

You say that you attended these Momentum rallies in person. Perhaps it would help if you could identify when and where they occurred, and I can look for other contemporaneous sources that support your claim. Otherwise, frankly, I think the gentlemanly thing to do - not to mention the legally cautious thing to do - would be to withdraw the (very serious) allegation you are making here.

[blandy]

47 minutes ago, darrenm said:

I'm not sure this is really getting us anywhere. You said

" but my point was that people use a record ONLY of good things to dismiss accusations of other, bad things."

So because I used the list as a record, surely I'm the object here? You may not have meant it that way, but that's how it reads. Unless you're referring to the Tory Fibs Twitter account. If so, how could you possibly know they don't also acknowledge JC's failures?

Ok. To clarify I said people use a record only of good things to dismiss....

You asked "can you give an example"

I said "yes, you linked to one [an example of a record of only good things]"

The object is the list. Not you, or your post. I hope that explains.

On the next question "how could I know they don't acknowledge Corbyn's failures? That's outside the scope of your first question which was for an example of a list of only good things. I haven't looked at or read all of their posts, ever made. How could I? It was the handiest "good only" list, seeing as you'd already found it for me.

You also asked for actual examples of Corbyn and his blind eye. "Like what? Actual specifics please, not rhetoric."

Here are some.

The Mural, as we've already covered.

The one you mentioned - "In 2012, Corbyn said a terrorist attack had 'the hand of Israel' involved. That was antisemitic." - there being zero evidence of any involvement by Israel or motive or etc...

Then there was that time he was recorded saying  "Zionists" who had lived in Britain probably all their lives "don't understand English irony" - So basically implying they were not somehow fully English or of us, even though were born in England. Which looks a bit sort of racisty and anti-semitic.

And https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2019/05/j-hobson-jeremy-corbyn-and-history-left-wing-anti-semitism

Quote

Corbyn wrote the Foreword to a 2011 edition of Hobson’s Imperialism: A Study, without acknowledging the fact that Hobson’s theory of imperialism was shot through with anti-Semitism. In his influential study, Hobson wrote that the finance houses that propelled European imperialism were “controlled… chiefly by men of a single and peculiar race, who have behind them many centuries of financial experience” and “are in a unique position to manipulate the policy of nations”. In case anyone is in doubt regarding the identity of this “peculiar race”, Hobson then asserted that no “great war” could occur if “the House of Rothschild” did not want it to. “There is not a war, a revolution, an anarchist assassination, or any other public shock,” he went on, from which these “harpies” cannot “suck their gains”.

And then there was his invite to parliament to the anti-semite Raed Salah (9/11 all the Jews were not in the twin towers - it was them wot dun it...Jews making bread with the blood of children - that kind of stuff)

Quote

He is far from a dangerous man. He is a very honoured citizen, he represents his people extremely well, and his is a voice that must be heard.' Corbyn added, 'I look forward to giving you tea on the terrace because you deserve it!'

and another unfortunate association and blind spot

Quote

Corbyn was considered to be a “stalwart” supporter of an anti-Israel campaign group Deir Yassin Remembered (DYR) for several years after its organisers were exposed publicly for their extreme anti-Semitic views.

and this blind spot from Labourlist

Quote

Jeremy Corbyn apologised when it was revealed last night that he hosted an event comparing the Israeli government to Nazis on Holocaust Memorial Day in 2010.

and sponsoring a parliamentary motion to rename Holocaust Memorial Day as Genocide Memorial Day - all lives matter, yeah, not just black ones? Bit, y'know...tone deaf? blind spot?

Quote

supports the call for international awareness of all communities and countries who have suffered and resisted mass extermination by renaming Holocaust Memorial Day as Genocide Memorial Day

and this, er, mis-step - biased towards Israel having a right to exist, as opposed to being unbiased and Israel having no right to exist?

There's loads more. Absolutely loads. His Hamas / Hezbollah "friends", all those meetings and stage sharing with the antisemitic whoppers.

Again. It's (being kind) a "blind spot"

[darrenm]

39 minutes ago, blandy said:

Ok. To clarify I said people use a record only of good things to dismiss....

You asked "can you give an example"

I said "yes, you linked to one [an example of a record of only good things]"

The object is the list. Not you, or your post. I hope that explains.

On the next question "how could I know they don't acknowledge Corbyn's failures? That's outside the scope of your first question which was for an example of a list of only good things. I haven't looked at or read all of their posts, ever made. How could I? It was the handiest "good only" list, seeing as you'd already found it for me.

You also asked for actual examples of Corbyn and his blind eye. "Like what? Actual specifics please, not rhetoric."

Here are some.

The Mural, as we've already covered.

The one you mentioned - "In 2012, Corbyn said a terrorist attack had 'the hand of Israel' involved. That was antisemitic." - there being zero evidence of any involvement by Israel or motive or etc...

Then there was that time he was recorded saying  "Zionists" who had lived in Britain probably all their lives "don't understand English irony" - So basically implying they were not somehow fully English or of us, even though were born in England. Which looks a bit sort of racisty and anti-semitic.

And https://www.newstatesman.com/politics/staggers/2019/05/j-hobson-jeremy-corbyn-and-history-left-wing-anti-semitism

And then there was his invite to parliament to the anti-semite Raed Salah (9/11 all the Jews were not in the twin towers - it was them wot dun it...Jews making bread with the blood of children - that kind of stuff)

and another unfortunate association and blind spot

and this blind spot from Labourlist

and sponsoring a parliamentary motion to rename Holocaust Memorial Day as Genocide Memorial Day - all lives matter, yeah, not just black ones? Bit, y'know...tone deaf? blind spot?

and this, er, mis-step - biased towards Israel having a right to exist, as opposed to being unbiased and Israel having no right to exist?

There's loads more. Absolutely loads. His Hamas / Hezbollah "friends", all those meetings and stage sharing with the antisemitic whoppers.

Again. It's (being kind) a "blind spot"

Thank you for taking the time to indulge me, I do appreciated it. I'm not interested in trying to endlessly defend anyone, I'm only trying to defend what I see as the truth.

1. The mural, as we've already covered was him liking a post on Facebook and commenting that it was the wrong decision that it was being removed. He says he didn't look closely enough. It's up to you if you believe him or not. And as we've already covered, a good few million people seem to have missed the exact same trope in plain view in Harry Potter.

2. Yep, straying into 'Israel controls the world' tropes can be antisemitic because while the state and the people are separate, it can be a way of making a dog whistle. As I already said, I agree on that one.

3. The Zionists in the audience is (I believe) an example of you getting the wrong end of the stick because you don't know enough about the context. Richard Millet and Jonathan Hoffman are well known aggressive anti-Palestinians. They attend any demonstration or meeting about Palestine and cause trouble. Hoffman was arrested for assault and then didn't turn up at court for his assault charge, along with another one of the group, Damon Lenszner. https://www.thejc.com/news/uk/jonathan-hoffman-ex-zionist-federation-vice-chair-faces-arrest-warrant-after-failing-to-appear-in-1.482146

Quote

 

A court has issued an arrest warrant for pro-Israel campaigner Jonathan Hoffman, after he failed to appear for a hearing on an assault charge.

Mr Hoffman, a former vice-president of the Zionist Federation, failed to appear at Westminster Magistrates' Court on Monday to face charges of common assault and using threatening words and behaviour, under Section Four of the Public Order Act.

 

They do a lot of this https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20170427-4-pro-israel-activists-thrown-out-of-parliament/

Quote

 

Jonathan Hoffman, who has become notorious for his disruptive behaviour, was also one of the two pro-Israel activists to be removed from the House of Lords during a pro-Palestinian event in March.

PRC has said it will be reporting the names of the activists to the relevant authorities in the Parliament and will call for the permanent banning of these individuals from entering the Commons building.

It stressed that “the four activists have a long history of disrupting pro-Palestinian meetings and cause intentional rows at universities and parliament.”

 

Corbyn was referring directly to those people he's got a long history with. With that context, there's no antisemitism there. Purely political differences on Zionism.

4. I won't even bother with the foreword in the Hobson book because it's plainly ridiculous. 

5. This is going back to the 'shared a platform with' stuff I think is nonsense. Corbyn said about Salah https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-answers-critics-ludicrous-and-wrong-anti-semitism-questions-10460206.html

Quote

 

On the issue of Mr Corbyn’s meeting with Raed Salah, the candidate said he was unaware of any conviction for anti-Semitism at the time.

“We had quite a long conversation and I made my views very clear. He did not at any stage utter any antisemitic remarks to me,” he explained.

 

6. As above

7. The House of Commons event called "Never Again - For Anyone" included Hajo Meyer, an Auschwitz survivor. The one who had the views that his experience allows him to compare the expansionism in Israel and treatment of Palestinians to the way Jews were treated by Nazis in WW2. The event was part of a wider tour called "Never Again For Anyone - Auschwitz to Gaza" to make this point. Surely this is an example of Corbyn being supportive of Jews? Otherwise you're saying the views of a holocaust survivor aren't valid and I'm not sure that's something I'd be comfortable doing. You have countless holocaust survivor descendants like Norman Finkelstein and Andrew Feinstein saying the same thing. They're delegitimised because they're on the left or are critical of zionism.

8. Yeah it is a bit all lives matter. I'm not sure the 2 things are especially comparable though. The Black Lives Matter movement is a movement. It's a point in time to recognise how black lives have been lost and black people treated over the centuries. It's why they say 'we know all lives matter, right now we want to focus on how black lives matter'. The proposed renaming of IHRD to Genocide Memorial Day - Never Again For Anyone was accompanied by this text which specifically mentions the Nazis and Jewish people. I'm not sure how it can be disagreed with.

Quote

That this House welcomes the Never Again For Anyone Initiative by survivors and descendents of survivors of genocides, which declares that every life is of value; notes that disabled people were the first victims of Nazi mass murder, that working class activists and trade unionists, many of whom were Jewish, were the first to be sent to concentration camps, and that Nazism targeted not only Jewish but also Roma, Jehovah's Witnesses, lesbian, gay and bisexual people and others they deemed undesirables; and therefore supports the call for international awareness of all communities and countries who have suffered and resisted mass extermination by renaming Holocaust Memorial Day as Genocide Memorial Day - Never Again For Anyone.

9. The video. Umm I'm struggling with what's wrong with what he's said.

[magnkarl]

@darrenm one (several) question(s). Do you think any of the things that have come out about Chris Williamson, Ken Livingstone, Jackie Walker etc, or any of the things Blandy said above are even slightly problematic? Should we not hold our political leaders to higher standards? Isn't there even a little ounce of you that thinks JC's been a bit over the line on more than 1 occasion, and that the disciplinary processes under Corbyn have been needlessly slow?

(Yes, I know BoJo and the conservatives are just as shit in many areas - I just want to know.)

Edited August 26, 2020 by magnkarl

[darrenm]

Just now, magnkarl said:

@darrenm one question. Do you think any of the things that have come out about Chris Williamson, Ken Livingstone, Jackie Walker etc, or any of the things Blandy said above are even slightly problematic? Should we not hold our political leaders to higher standards? Isn't there even a little ounce of you that thinks JC's been a bit over the line on more than 1 occasion, and that the disciplinary processes under Corbyn have been needlessly slow?

(Yes, I know BoJo and the conservatives are just as shit in many areas - I just want to know.)

I thought I was clear that I accepted some of the things Blandy said about are problematic. I just disagreed that Corbyn has a blind spot with antisemitism. I remember asking Michael Rosen how if I didn't know if someone is Jewish or not, I could make sure I wasn't being antisemitic. His response was 'don't worry. Antisemitism is treating someone different because they're Jewish. If you don't know they're Jewish then you can't be antisemitic towards them'. The point there is Corbyn is tight with his local synagogue. He goes to Seder every year with a local left wing Jewish group (who Andrew Neil called "nutters" - antisemitic?). Half of the Momentum leadership who started simply to get him in power are Jewish. He's loved by Jewish people on the left and hated by Jewish people on the right. I know there's the 'I can't be racist, I have plenty of black friends' quip but the point I'm trying to make is, he can't be naturally antisemitic because he quite obviously treats Jewish people the same way as he treats everyone else. I know it's not that simple and it's probably a crap point to try to make and I know you can still say or do antisemitic things while not being an antisemite, I'm trying to explain why I think he should get the benefit of the doubt with problematic stuff. I accept it's a luxury I wouldn't afford to Boris Johnson.

As for Jackie Walker, Ken Livingstone and Williamson, they're all part of the crank left I've stayed away from. Williamson is a Jew baiter, Jackie Walker seems to intentionally cause trouble and Livingstone can't keep his mouth shut.

I think the disciplinary process went like this (from what I've read):

* It was really bad under McNicol but nobody cared because Corbyn wasn't leader.
* Corbyn became leader and the Labour infighting between factions caused it to get no better.
* After 2017 GE result and the subsequent embarrassing hammering Labour took over antisemitism, the left took control of the NEC and managed to get Jennie Formby as General Secretary and the process improved massively. They finally dealt with Livingstone and all the years old historic cases got fast tracked.

So yeah, the processes were needlessly slow, but again you have to know the context of what was happening. The GS arguably has more power than the party leader and Iain McNicol was - according to Labour leaks - intentionally slowing the process down to cause trouble.

Hopefully the truth will all come out in the Forde inquiry.

[magnkarl]

57 minutes ago, darrenm said:

Thank you for taking the time to indulge me, I do appreciated it. I'm not interested in trying to endlessly defend anyone, I'm only trying to defend what I see as the truth.

1. The mural, as we've already covered was him liking a post on Facebook and commenting that it was the wrong decision that it was being removed. He says he didn't look closely enough. It's up to you if you believe him or not. And as we've already covered, a good few million people seem to have missed the exact same trope in plain view in Harry Potter.

2. Yep, straying into 'Israel controls the world' tropes can be antisemitic because while the state and the people are separate, it can be a way of making a dog whistle. As I already said, I agree on that one.

3. The Zionists in the audience is (I believe) an example of you getting the wrong end of the stick because you don't know enough about the context. Richard Millet and Jonathan Hoffman are well known aggressive anti-Palestinians. They attend any demonstration or meeting about Palestine and cause trouble. Hoffman was arrested for assault and then didn't turn up at court for his assault charge, along with another one of the group, Damon Lenszner. https://www.thejc.com/news/uk/jonathan-hoffman-ex-zionist-federation-vice-chair-faces-arrest-warrant-after-failing-to-appear-in-1.482146

They do a lot of this https://www.middleeastmonitor.com/20170427-4-pro-israel-activists-thrown-out-of-parliament/

Corbyn was referring directly to those people he's got a long history with. With that context, there's no antisemitism there. Purely political differences on Zionism.

4. I won't even bother with the foreword in the Hobson book because it's plainly ridiculous. 

5. This is going back to the 'shared a platform with' stuff I think is nonsense. Corbyn said about Salah https://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/politics/jeremy-corbyn-answers-critics-ludicrous-and-wrong-anti-semitism-questions-10460206.html

6. As above

7. The House of Commons event called "Never Again - For Anyone" included Hajo Meyer, an Auschwitz survivor. The one who had the views that his experience allows him to compare the expansionism in Israel and treatment of Palestinians to the way Jews were treated by Nazis in WW2. The event was part of a wider tour called "Never Again For Anyone - Auschwitz to Gaza" to make this point. Surely this is an example of Corbyn being supportive of Jews? Otherwise you're saying the views of a holocaust survivor aren't valid and I'm not sure that's something I'd be comfortable doing. You have countless holocaust survivor descendants like Norman Finkelstein and Andrew Feinstein saying the same thing. They're delegitimised because they're on the left or are critical of zionism.

8. Yeah it is a bit all lives matter. I'm not sure the 2 things are especially comparable though. The Black Lives Matter movement is a movement. It's a point in time to recognise how black lives have been lost and black people treated over the centuries. It's why they say 'we know all lives matter, right now we want to focus on how black lives matter'. The proposed renaming of IHRD to Genocide Memorial Day - Never Again For Anyone was accompanied by this text which specifically mentions the Nazis and Jewish people. I'm not sure how it can be disagreed with.

9. The video. Umm I'm struggling with what's wrong with what he's said.

Yes, great scholars like Norman Finkelstein. A guy known for amongst other things saying this:

Quote

The anti-Israel activist Norman Finkelstein has told a meeting of the Labour Against The Witch-Hunt group: “I don’t know what a Holocaust denier is” - while backing what he said were “statistical, scholarly questions” around the question of whether six million Jews died in the Shoah.

Great stuff there. 

[HanoiVillan]

I can't help but notice that evidence Norman Finkelstein might be a wrong'un was provided in something less than an hour there, but I've been waiting for evidence that Jon Lansman 'questioned the loyalty of British Jews' at at least 2 Momentum rallies for about a day at this point.

[Chindie]

Finkelstein is a pretty good scholar in my experience.

Likes Corbyn though so is purest, purest self hating word removed though, of course.

[magnkarl]

28 minutes ago, darrenm said:

I thought I was clear that I accepted some of the things Blandy said about are problematic. I just disagreed that Corbyn has a blind spot with antisemitism. I remember asking Michael Rosen how if I didn't know if someone is Jewish or not, I could make sure I wasn't being antisemitic. His response was 'don't worry. Antisemitism is treating someone different because they're Jewish. If you don't know they're Jewish then you can't be antisemitic towards them'. The point there is Corbyn is tight with his local synagogue. He goes to Seder every year with a local left wing Jewish group (who Andrew Neil called "nutters" - antisemitic?). Half of the Momentum leadership who started simply to get him in power are Jewish. He's loved by Jewish people on the left and hated by Jewish people on the right. I know there's the 'I can't be racist, I have plenty of black friends' quip but the point I'm trying to make is, he can't be naturally antisemitic because he quite obviously treats Jewish people the same way as he treats everyone else. I know it's not that simple and it's probably a crap point to try to make and I know you can still say or do antisemitic things while not being an antisemite, I'm trying to explain why I think he should get the benefit of the doubt with problematic stuff. I accept it's a luxury I wouldn't afford to Boris Johnson.

As for Jackie Walker, Ken Livingstone and Williamson, they're all part of the crank left I've stayed away from. Williamson is a Jew baiter, Jackie Walker seems to intentionally cause trouble and Livingstone can't keep his mouth shut.

I think the disciplinary process went like this (from what I've read):

* It was really bad under McNicol but nobody cared because Corbyn wasn't leader.
* Corbyn became leader and the Labour infighting between factions caused it to get no better.
* After 2017 GE result and the subsequent embarrassing hammering Labour took over antisemitism, the left took control of the NEC and managed to get Jennie Formby as General Secretary and the process improved massively. They finally dealt with Livingstone and all the years old historic cases got fast tracked.

So yeah, the processes were needlessly slow, but again you have to know the context of what was happening. The GS arguably has more power than the party leader and Iain McNicol was - according to Labour leaks - intentionally slowing the process down to cause trouble.

Hopefully the truth will all come out in the Forde inquiry.

Thank you for a well put reply. I might not agree with you but it's good to see some reflection on Corbyn's behalf. 

Why should we give Corbyn the benefit of the doubt when you don't afford it to politicians you don't support? Why does the argument of "he has Jewish friends" even hold water here, but if someone were to put the same argument with for example a KKK member having a BAME friend or friends you'd rightly shoot it down in an instant? 

The saying goes; surround yourself with people that reflect who you want to be and how you want to feel, energies and values are contagious.

I gather you don't think that Corbyn ever gets affected by his old affiliates and friends? It certainly doesn't seem like he can distance himself from them.

[chrisp65]

Never having even heard of Norman Finklestein I just googled him up, as a random from the names being bandied around.

He is not a holocaust denier, his mother and father Experienced the holocaust and were both in Nazi concentration camps and much of his family were killed in the camps.

What he does appear to be, is a critic of the political state of Israel, and that will get you called some pretty distasteful names. 

 

Edited August 26, 2020 by chrisp65

[magnkarl]

4 minutes ago, chrisp65 said:

Never having even heard of Norman Finklestein I just googled him up, as a random from the names being bandied around.

He is not a holocaust denier, his mother and father Experienced the holocaust and were both in Nazi concentration camps and much of his family were killed in the camps.

What he does appear to be, is a critic of the political state of Israel, and that will get you called some pretty distasteful names. 

 

I urge you to read a bit about David Irving in relation to Finkelstein.

[HanoiVillan]

2 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

I urge you to read a bit about David Irving in relation to Finkelstein.

Perhaps you could link to a useful source of information, rather than hinting vaguely at something unspecified and unsavoury without explaining what it is.

Sorry, that's two pieces of homework I've given you now! (Don't forget that the Lansman assignment is overdue)

[darrenm]

16 minutes ago, magnkarl said:

It certainly doesn't seem like he can distance himself from them.

He absolutely threw Williamson away when it was obvious Williamson wasn't just making a mistake. Corbyn got him expelled for what was in the end quite an innocuous comment.

AFAIK he's never had anything to do with Walker once she was kicked out too?

[magnkarl]

7 minutes ago, HanoiVillan said:

Perhaps you could link to a useful source of information, rather than hinting vaguely at something unspecified and unsavoury without explaining what it is.

Sorry, that's two pieces of homework I've given you now! (Don't forget that the Lansman assignment is overdue)

Google.com - I know it's tough but frankly it feels like you're the kind of man that needs to make up his own mind about things so I'll let you do that. It sort of feels pretty much like a one way street at the moment where one party sits back and waits for information to be fed to him, critiques it with some whataboutery, and pretends to give the other homework.

Since it irks you so much I'll retract my statement about Lansman until I can dig out the proof. 

You are more than welcome to contribute to the conversation.