Con

We are at a moment in time when we are constantly on the defensive, so we only get to see the negative side of Clark's game exposed, not the positive he adds to an attack. Clark scored a goal earlier this season, against Newcastle. If we signed Vermaelen or Koscienly from Arsenal they would perform as bad or as worse than Clark. Clark's style of player has a place in a modern attacking, Premiership side - but preferably one that has lots of possession. In a side that is constantly defending, like ours, they can be a liability. This is the same reason why the current Arsenal team when they have an off day - when they don't control possession - look chaotic in defence and ship so many goals.

Stats provide a refreshing alternative to opinion that can get bogged down with emotion - stats are cold and objective - and add some "meat" to a discussion. I agree they don't tell you the whole story. The positive with Clark's approach is he doesn't give away free kicks close to the penalty box. If he let the player receive the ball the referee could interpret a tackle as a foul. Another positive is if Clark gets there first he can carry the ball forward and set up a counter attack. The big negative which people have spotted is if he doesn't get to the ball first he is totally out of position!! Someone needs to cover him or he needs to pick and choose the moments he rushes better. The stats allow you to understand how the player plays. Nowhere have I said Ciaren Clark is a Champions League defender. Nowhere have I said the stats show this. The terms "good" and "bad" are value terms and nothing more... they can be used to describe a pub team player, or World Cup Hall of Famers. So there is definitely a place for citing stats, you just gotta understand how they're used.

Clark is a "modern" centre back*. The extra ball skills nearly always come at a price - worse defending. That is why he needs to be paired with a traditional centre back. * Arsene Wenger usually plays 2 modern centre backs, Koscielny and Vermaelen. Tony Pulis usually plays 2 traditional centre backs, Huth and Shawcross. Alex Ferguson likes to plays one of each, Ferdinand and Vidic, but has been playing 2 modern centre backs (or 1 modern + 1 not that good CB) since Vidic got injured. Brenden Rodgers has two traditional centre-backs, Agger and Skrtel. Roberto Mancini has Vincent Kompany, the complete defender. Rafael Benitez has moved David Lulz to midfield because he doesn't want to 2 modern centre backs mucking about his back line (Lulz and Cahill). I think the one of each is best system. Spainish Euro winning team had one of each, Ramos and Pique, although Pique is good enough to be a playmaking centre back in this country.

Ciaren Clark is a playmaking defender. He's probably not as defensively robust as Vlaar/Baker but he is comparatively comfortable with the ball and can take it up field and contribute to the attack, which is important in a modern central defence. He plays the "Rio Ferdinand" role not the "Nemanja Vidic". Ciaren Clark stats http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/24 Good Passing - 82%. Best of our central defenders. Anticipation - 2.5 interceptions per game - Best of our central defenders and best in the squad. Ball skills - Clark has not been dispossessed whilst in possession of the ball all season. Every other regular player in the squad has. Offside trap - Statistics suggest he is not quite as good as Baker and Herd but definitely better than Vlaar, Lowton and Bennett. The difference is probably due to Clark's familiarity with Baker and Herd in the reserve/academy sides, and lack of familiarity with Vlaar, Lowton and Bennett. Clark has played with the new guys many times more than Herd and Baker have. It's probable Vlaar, Lowton and Bennett have depressed Clark's offside stat, as Baker and Herd have only played CD with Clark in it. Clearances - Clark makes the most clearances per game of any other player in the defence or squad. This suggests he has comparatively good defensive positioning - in the right place at the right time to make the clearance. Bad Heading - wins 60% headers. Herd, Vlaar, Baker are 70% + Undecided Tackles - makes very few tackles. Ciaren Clark has made only 19 tackles the whole season. To put that in perspective, Barry Bannan has played fewer games but has made 27 tackles. Brett Holman has made 48 tackles. This could be his style of play as a central defender. Should you risk a tackle in front of your penalty box (or in the penalty box) that could be given as a foul and allow the opposition a free shot at goal from the free kick? Notice the high number of interceptions Clark makes? It's his defensive style to anticipate to stop the forward getting the ball so he doesn't need to tackle.

Vlaar-Clark record W 2 D 3 L 6 Clark-Baker record (Baker as CB) W 2 D 2 L 2 Herd as CB W1 D 3 L 3 As far as I know there are two kinds of centreback template. Playmaking centreback - Rio Ferdinand - and stay-at-home rough-tough centreback - the Nemanja Vidic. Clark is the playmaking centreback and Vlaar/Baker are in the defense-first mold, though Vlaar has a bit more playmaking than Baker. Clark's is not at CB simply for his defensive skill (though I recognise that seems an odd statement) but for defense + ball skills, which helps when passing the ball around. He has best pass accuracy of our CBs at 82%. His better ball skills are shown by the fact he has not been tackled in possession yet this season. His defending style is to anticipate play and intercept balls because he rarely makes a tackle. Vlaar and Baker tackle at higher rate. Clark has only 19 all season. He has got 5 clean sheets though so who is to say that is a bad approach. His major weakness is heading winning 60% headers compared to 72% for Baker and Vlaar, and 70% for Herd (who is 5'8" ! Legend!). Earlier this season Vlaar was just settling into the Premiership from the slower Dutch Eredivise. Could not have been at his peak performance.

One thing that is important in the Premier League is pace, and he has that. Bennett also has a few tricks - this season he has had 13 successful dribbles, fouled 6 times - and a decent pass percentage of 83% (Lowton who most of us think is doing well is 77%). Bennett's flaw is his defending and his lack of experience. He's been caught in possession 12 times - once for every 58 minutes he's played, which for a defender is very bad (funnily enough he didn't get dispossessed at all against Swansea when he was playing left wing). To show how bad that is as a defender, Lowton and Stevens are only caught in possession every 190 minutes. (Ciaren Clark has never been dispossessed, while Herd, Baker and Vlaar are in multiple hundreds - almost never). What Bennett needs is experience as a defender we can't afford to give him right now which is why left wing could be a good position for him - and for us, what defending skill he does have could help make us stronger defensively down that side. Stats derived from whoscored.com http://www.whoscored...sea-Aston-Villa

Leighton Baines is 28 years old. Two or three years ago Warnock was considered better than him. Now, pundits on MOTD eulogise his every highlight and he is considered a serious challenge to Ashley Cole's England spot. Another classic example: Ian Wright turned professional at 22. The point? Not all footballers stop getting better once they hit 20. It's true that some plateau from an early age. That's not true of all players. 1. Hungry 2. Willing to learn 3. Able to learn 4. Disciplined attitude 5. Some natural talent This is what is required to keep getting better. Westwood looks like he has some natural talent so if he has 1-4 he'll keep getting better. So it doesn't matter that Westwood is 21 and has recently been playing in League One!

It's been said before and people don't like it but his statistics would be better if the players around him were better. He's not the weakest link "goodbye"; "hello McLeish", "thanks for the daylight robbery £2m" (when I think he could be worth £20m at the end of the season, if he gets more game time - a figure I base on Joe Allen transfer to Liverpool £15m). It's very probable, since Bannan has the best statistics for chance creation and retaining possession (in midfield), he is helping to raise the statistics of his teammates (increasing the number of touches they have, giving them possession in dangerous areas) while they are keeping his down (touches per game, touches in dangerous areas, assists). Obviously, don't misunderstand me either. I'm not saying he is as good as Xavi. He is not as good as Juan Mata. We should not throw away talent we have. That is my point. He has potential to be better than Milner and Barry in some aspects of the game, for example set pieces and spotting an attacking pass.

If Bannan is our best midfielder, why does he receive the most abuse and people say "get rid"? The statistics show 1. He creates the most chances, has one assist. 2. His passing accuracy is decent, and whilst not as good as Westwood's the amount of key passes Bannan makes more than makes up for it. Westwood makes a key pass once every 127 minutes. Bannan is nearly 3 times better, once every 46 minutes. 3. He is not responsible for losing possession of the ball. If we had more possession he would make more chances. Bannan gets caught in possession far less often than our other midfielders, only once every 117 minutes. The only other one who gets close to Bannan - but still not quite as good - is Westwood. 4. This is not a good statistic because Bannan never plays. He has been on the pitch for 18/19 points we have won this season. Even so, Bannan has still only played for about 50% of the minutes available in the Aston Villa midfield this season. This is interesting discussion but recently we haven't had any free kicks near the opponent's penalty area! Who knows who takes the free kicks. Benteke took the penalty the other day. Benteke and Weimann might also be free kick shooters.

He has 28 key passes. A key pass is a potential assist. It's not his fault when a key pass is not turned into a goal, thus registering as an assist. Westwood has 2 assists, one more than Bannan. One assist was against QPR passing it backwards to Holman who shot in from range. The other was from a corner. Only one of these assists required creativity and vision - spotting an opportunity from distance and delivering ball to that spot. That is the corner. The first one was a lucky assist because Holman did all the work. "Key passes" is the key statistic if you want to know how many chances a player creates. On that statistic, and on many others, Bannan is the best of our midfielders. There is no ambiguity here. The statistics are very clear that Bannan is our best midfielder.

Pass success: Bannan 80%. Westwood 86%. Bannan plays more key passes which are much harder. It's easy to get a high % if you are passing 5 meters sideways or backwards. Another measure is how often a midfielder is caught in possession. That is another criticism thrown at Bannan - unfairly, because he is the safest Villa player with the ball, according to the stats. Bannan has been caught in possession 11 times in 1289 minutes. ie. gets caught in possession once every 117 minutes. Westwood has been caught in possession 10 times in 1013 minutes. That is once every 101 minutes. Delph: once every 67 minutes. Ireland: once every 43 minutes. El Ahmadi: once every 65 minutes. Stats derived from data at whoscored.com

Yes, it was Bannan. It's not the first good corner or free kick he has taken this season. When he plays he is our set-piece taker because he is a set-piece specialist. My favoured theory is the same people who hate Andy Murray hate Barry Bannan. It's because he's Scottish. It has to be because nobody has put forward an argument based on statistics to explain why he is as shit as they say he is. It's all argument based on assertion. It's all Bannanophobia: an irrational fear of short Scottish people. BTW a Bannanophobe earlier offered up the 'stat' that Bannan had no goals or assists this season. So he was shit. I just accepted this stat to be true, because I don't expect people to lie. I should have checked for myself. Bannan has at least 1 assist. http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2012/sep/02/newcastle-aston-villa-premier-league-match-report So not only has Bannan been on the pitch for 18/19 points, he has 1 assist. According to whoscored, Bannan has made 28 key passes this season. He's played 1194 minutes of football so that works out as 1 key pass every 42 minutes. Westwood has made 8 key passes in 977 minutes: that is 1 key pass every 122 minutes.

This season 18 / 19 points we've won with Bannan on the pitch. Bannan has only been playing about 50% of the time available. The vitriol against him is astonishing... it's like some people don't want him to be successful because they just don't want to support a Scottish person who is below average in height. Nobody has said this outright. But nobody who is very critical is using statistics to support their arguments. I can't find any rational reason to "get rid".

He's very raw. I don't mind him playing left wing where he has defensive support behind him. He's got pace, some tricks and a cross. But nothing so far has suggested he's ready for Premier League as an out-and-out defender. Lambert should stop experimenting with him there because it must be bad for his confidence. I'd keep him, play him on the left wing until he gains much more experience.

Awesome performance against Swansea. Goal and an assist. Love the way he shouted at Weimann when he hurriedly took a shot from a bad angle with players in front of him when a simple pass back to Benteke would have been goal 2. Camera zoomed in on Weimann looking rather sheepish and apologetically back at him. You can tell who is going to be boss in that partnership. Benteke grabbed the ball off Weimann for the penalty and never looked like missing.

Yes. Then another poster made the point about Allen playing well for Swansea last season, while Bannan did not play nearly as well for Villa. Conclusion being, Allen is worth £15 million (in my opinion, though some think Allen is not worth that much), Bannan is not. That was last season though. Since then we've had the Liverpool game when Bannan got the better of Allen in a 1-3 win, and this season we've had Allen playing at a big club that isn't built around him - no Leon Britton as side-kick, which is a different challenge. We should now make a fresh comparison, and that IMO suggests Bannan is not far away at all. Interesting point - Bannan does have leadership skills. He waves his arms and points where he thinks the ball should go... always seems to be aware of the action around him. I'm not saying Bannan is a great leader and captain material. I don't think he should be captain. (I shouldn't have to say that but I thought I better).

Bannan crossed for the corner that lead to the penalty. Benteke's header was cleared off the line, Weimann picked it up and was fouled. That goal from the penalty proved vital in the end. The records of our midfielders - Bannan W4 D6 L7 = 18 points Westwood W4 D4 L4 = 16 points Ireland W3 D2 L7 = 11 points Delph W1 D5 L4 = 8 points El Ahmadi W1 D5 L6 = 8 points #3058 "I didn't say you'd said he was at that level but you've compared him to Xavi on more than one occasion." You wrongly suggested here I am comparing his ability to Xavi. The word "level" is synonymous with "ability" or "level of ability" here. Edit: Actually, I'm completely misreading your sentence. Sorry. However, I don't know what you're saying if you are agreeing I'm not comparing his ability to Xavi. #3059 "I think the regular mentions of global superstars and fabricated quotes about what others expect of in a midfielder, though, are muddying how your point is coming across." I said clearly that I was not comparing Bannan's ability to Xavi who is one of the "global superstars" you are referring to here. I didn't say anyone in particular had suggested this specifically. My point was that criticisms often began from the starting point he was only 5'7" which, frankly, is a ridiculous criticism of a footballer because many of the world's current and previous greatest footballers have been this height - and shorter. I'm not comparing Bannan to the world's greatest footballers in any way other than height. My reference to a team of Harlem Globetrotters and Wrestling stars was, I thought, a lively way to present the opposing argument. Yes, it is a caricature but so is use of the word "midget" to describe Bannan and others of his height. You used that word in post #3059. I have to disagree with that. My own style of play is more like Xavi that of Crouch, Van Persie or Walcott. As soon as I say that you get an idea what I'm like, although I am taller than Bannan. Joe Allen started in the little pool, built up his confidence and experience, and graduated to the big pool. Bannan started at the bigger club in the higher division: he was thrown in at the deep end. It's not possible to directly compare the two due to differences in experience. He delivered an excellent corner to Benteke today. I'm surprised you've not heard pundits mention his set piece taking ability. I haven't seen him in the reserves. All I have to compare him to is other players. He shows a spark, needs more experience and consistency. He needs to be more aggressive and the team around him needs to play better. Right now my position is Bannan is better than, so we need to play him. Criticisms are justified and is how players improve but some criticisms are simply not well thought out, and we need a corrective to those. Edit 2: To respond to post below, Lichaj had a positive goal difference until the Wigan game. After the Wigan game he is -2, which is still the best record. He was played in all 4 victories. Solid defender.

No, my point - by referring to Walcott's pace - was that you are comparing different players. Walcott could be played - and therefore gain experience - from a very young age because he had lots of pace. Criticised for his inept use of the ball and poor finishing. Was worth his place in the team for his pace alone. Now, Walcott is 23 and has 150+ Arsenal games behind him. All that experience, because he had pace from a young age. Not in ability. Go back and read what I wrote. Near page 150. You are putting words into my mouth if you say I'm comparing Bannan's ability to Xavi Come on, this is silly. I made a point of saying I was not comparing Bannan to Xavi in ability. Post #2979 I said "He's not like Xavi in ability but in style of play Bannan is more like Xavi than other midfielders." There you go. Now I don't want to hear you repeat the claim I think Bannan is the "New Xavi" again. How much is Juan Mata worth if Joe Allen is £15m. £40m+. Mata is the New Xavi. I think Bannan is possibly better than Joe Allen.

Both Westwood and Delph looked like they were stuck in the middle of a fire-fight. Delph didn't manage a single tackle in the entire game, Swansea had all the possession, passing rings around them. Neither provided much protection for the centre-backs, non-existent in the first half. They're not specialist DMs, we need to buy one quickly. Played a simple game, didn't make any particularly memorable attacking contribution apart from a hooked clearance to the sidelines that Benteke turned into a chance. Got caught in possession early which lead to a chance for Swansea but did not make any glaring errors after that. I don't think Delph had a bad game and should share in the credit for stealing a point.

Stole a point against Swansea. Should have been all over in the first 20 minutes. Hit the post twice. Amazing 1 on 1 save from Guzan. Should have been 4-0 down at half time. Second half they had a possible penalty waved off. Credit to Clark and Herd for steadying things after the dodgy opening. Weimann and Benteke are the reason we got the draw as we had very little possession. We did not string a series of passes together once. The long ball up to the big man all game. Both our strikers deserved their goals even if we stole a point. This game shows we have the courage and firepower to get enough points to stay in the Premiership. BTW Herd is incredible at CB... no, not first choice incredible but the guy is 5'8, playing centre back. He's not that stocky either. How does he do it? Jumps like a Kangeroo. It's like 5'9 Campo playing goalie for Mexico. You don't expect it. Fabio Cannovaro is the only other 5'8 CB I know.

They are playing different roles that require different level of experience and abilities. If you have lots of pace you don't need to be very experienced and especially skillful to get into the starting line-up of a Premier League side. Throw them in at a young age, no problem. Nobody has. Don't put words into my mouth... I've only been saying he is better than. Do you think Agbonlahor will ever win a Champions League medal? He probably wont. Still, you presumably don't mind him being in the team. Compare Bannan to someone ridiculously good he will look shit! But compare him to the competition in the squad he is good. Compare Bannan to Joe Allen... he looks comparable Joe Allen cost Liverpool £15m from Swansea. Yes, some Liverpool fans are saying after 19 games no goals or assists he's shit. No Joe Allen is not shit either. Like Bannan is not shit. Those Liverpool fans just don't understand what that kind of player does. That is all. Allen is now playing at a bigger club with the pressures that go with that, and the team is no longer built around him. He'll settle in at Liverpool.

McLeish is trying to unsettle Bannan. It must be very tempting to jump ship to a Championship team promoted to the Prem and get Villa relegated in the process ... as that would probably happen if we sold Bannan. The club is not going to sell Bannan any time soon though. Joe Allen sold for £15 million. He played against Bannan in the Liverpool team Bannan played well against when we won 1-3. Allen didn't look £13m pricier than Bannan, that's for sure.

Joe Allen cost £15m.

LOL. I wouldn't sell him for £20m. Don't ask me to justify that. My opinion.

The team needs a talisman and that, in the absence of anyone else, is Barry Bannan. This is all the more surprising because he hasn't had any highlight reel moments this season. Always there. Like the team mascot. He, Lichaj, Lowtan, Guzan and Clark have been on the park for all four victories we've had. Swansea, Sunderland, Reading, Liverpool. Lichaj is another player who is underrated. Like Bannan I wouldn't over-rate him but he is underrated and should be starting every match. His lack of pace doesn't seem to affect the results we have.