Con

Not quite... it is also important to not pass the ball to the opposition strikers. Isn't that right, Branoslav Ivanovic? James Collins? During the game your defensive line will be near the middle circle. A CB who can pass well is also a great attacking asset here. We want our team to attack, so Ciaren Clark will be an asset when we attack.

Please read my post #969. It will help you understand the different kind of CBs.

He makes interceptions, not tackles. This is why he needs to be paired with a traditional club-footed defensive CB. It depends what your expectation was. If you expected him to play like Robert Huth or Branoslav Ivanovic you will be very disappointed. If your expectation is more like Gary Cahill - who also came through Villa academy - then Clark is showing promise. I think Clark's defending skill is higher than Cahill's.

If you put two Ivanovic's at CB you'll get dodgy passes that are intercepted by the opposition strikers every other game. There is a balance to be struck between skill and ruggedness at CB. That is why the ideal IMO is top class traditional defender paired with a top class playmaking CB.

I don't think he is weak on strength. How do you justify that claim? Clark is sometimes caught out of position but other times he makes great interceptions. When he doesn't get to the ball he is out of position. No team has a 100% clean sheet record. When a goal is scored, the CBs are always out of position. Vincent Kompany has been caught out of position about 19 times this season. Positioning is something Clark will improve on but I would say his positioning is already generally 'good'. Clark wins about 60% aerial battles compared to 70% which is typical of our defensive CBs, Vlaar and Baker. Clark's aerial % is about the same as Vermaelen this season 59%. You'd expect this weakness from a playmaking CB, nobody can deny he should be partnered with a traditional CB. You say he is weak on the "deck" - what do you mean? Please explain. He has good passing stats, scores goals. Makes a lot of interceptions, clearances and blocked shots. I think you are wrong on this one. He's a good playmaking CB. He needs to be partnered with a strong traditional CB. Baker is a traditional CB and has played very well in many games but he's also made a few mistakes recently.

In other games he has been crucial to us getting the points by contributing to a clean sheet. Aston Villa 2 Swansea 0 (with Vlaar) Sunderland 0 Aston Villa 1 (with Vlaar) Aston Villa 0 Arsenal 0 (Vlaar to 51 mins) Aston Villa 1 Reading 0 (without Vlaar) Aston Villa 0 Stoke 0 (without Vlaar) Also long shots/deflections in these games prevented a clean sheet - Newcastle 1 Aston Villa 1 (with Vlaar) Liverpool 1 Aston Villa 3 (without Vlaar) This record shows inconsistency. It doesn't show he is a bad defender. You are cherry picking the worst results during which the goals conceded may not have had anything to do with Clark's defending. Against Chelsea, Spurs and Wigan a lot of the goals came down our left side with Bennett at LB. Clark cannot do Bennett's defending for him.

Not all defenders are equally talented at passing and controlling the ball. They may hold down their place because they are great at heading, have strong positional sense, great leaders and organisers. This is the traditional defender. Imagine a spectrum: traditional defender with no playmaking skill but very strong defensive skill > balanced defender with playmaking skill and strong defensive skill > playmaking defender with strong playmaking skill but slightly weaker defensive skill Robert Huth > Vincent Kompany > Thomas Vermaelen List of PL defenders I believe have decent playmaking skill: Rio Ferdinand, Thomas Vermaelen, David Lulz, Gary Cahill, Vincent Kompany, Fabricio Coloccini, Ciaren Clark. Of these, Ferdinand, Kompany and Coloccini (?) are balanced players who are also equally good defenders. Clark, Lulz, Cahill, Vermaelen are good defenders but they don't hold down their place because of their strong defensive skill. Non-PL list: Sergio Ramos, Daniel De Rossi, Franz Beckenbauer. Ideally, you partner one strong defensive CB with one good playmaking CB (who is as strong defensively as you can get). Hence the Vidic - Ferdinand partnership at Man Utd. The best, rarest and most expensive defenders are the "balanced" kind. That is why Arsenal bought Vermaelen. There are so few of them they are all at the biggest clubs, and they couldn't afford them, so had to compromise a bit on defending skill to get the level of passing they wanted from their CBs. Having CBs with bad passing can be a liability sometimes - like Chelsea game against Swansea. Ivanovic is a traditional defender. the wheels have come off over last few games. that's why experience is needed. doesn't make him a bad defender. doing a decent job for a 24 year old, to the best of his abilities.

I disagree. I would say Bennett on present evidence is not very good at defending. Clark is a good defender. He's not to blame for all our goals, and has about five clean sheets already this season. There is also place for defenders who have different styles. A defence that doesn't have a Ciaren Clark would be like Stoke's. Lacking in passing and skill on the ball, kicking it long all the time. You don't want to be relying on the Vermaelen types in a relegation battle, and he needs help alongside him, but he's not a 'bad' defender.

Vlaar & Clark 9 points in 11 matches. Clark & Other 9 points in 8 matches. Clark isn't a bad CB. He's just not a defensive CB, he's an offensive CB, like Vermaelen.

Random tweet from twitter is worth more than the analysis I've provided in this thread? All he has done is mentioned his goals and assists and games and put the word "just" in front. That's not analysis. It's trolling. Check out Leon Britton's stats for Swansea. Leon Britton is one of their key players. We've said many times, Bannan's stats would improve in a better team. Could have had 6 assists the other night. For someone on about 10k week that's pretty good value compared to what some of our other midfielders are earning.

Bannan a "midfield destroyer"? Herd a "centre back"? Click this link for my response. We weren't "shredded" by Bradford at all. We created all the chances. Bannan was waltzing through them like Cinderella on Prom night. I think Delph needs another club because he is played out of position here. Bannan is creating chances... that is what he is in the team to do. I think midfield destroyer is a great nickname though - it describes how he destroys opposition defences!

You watched the highlights - what did you think about the 5 chances he set up? We could call it 6 chances: he made a sliding tackle/interception to kick the ball to N'Zogbia who ran up the pitch and took a shot from 25 yards. That went for a corner, which Bannan teed up for Benteke who missed badly. Assists are only assists if the player who received the key pass scores from it. Bannan could have had six assists tonight. A key pass sets up a chance. It is a pass that is "key" to something happening. That is "key" not just involved in some way - key. Yes if the corners are on target. If they are never on target they won't add to his key pass stat. Bannan wouldn't be given corner duty by the manager if he wasn't good at taking them. The fact he is our corner taker shows the manager has total confidence in him to deliver at set pieces. Leon Britton has no goals no assists. One of Swansea's key players. Helped beat Chelsea 0-2. Stats don't tell you everything you know. Hehe.

Leon Britton: no goals, no assists. Played 18 matches for Swansea, more minutes than Bannan. One of Swansea's most important players. Also, did you watch the League Cup show? He served Benteke a hattrick on a plate, and created a couple of others for Agbonlahor and another from a corner. As I've said before, key passes is the key stat you need to look at, not assists. Assists are just those key passes that have been scored. If any pyjama pundit wants some cheap credibility right now - buy Bannan. As all good stock traders know, always buy at the bottom when everyone is selling and sell at the top when everyone is buying. McLeish didn't want Bannan for Nottingham Forest because he's a Championship player. If he was a Championship player he would go to League One. McLeish wanted him because Bannan could send Forest to the Premiership. If Bannan continues to make chances for Villa like he did on Tuesday we will look back on any thought of selling as ridiculous.

How many passes is he allowed to misplace, in your opinion, before he becomes fit to wear the shirt? Remember that making chances often requires playing the hard ball. Sometimes you have to go for them even though they could be intercepted. I would expect a creative passing player who creates goalscoring chances for strikers to misplace passes in the same way I understand that N'Zogbia is going to get tackled a lot, because he tries to do the hard thing and dribble around defenders. Anyway I watched the League Cup show. The edited highlights made Bannan look like our best player. Mark Bright said "they created a lot of chances and the manager will be happy about that". Bright blamed the strikers and the defence for the defeat. I think I'm feeling pretty confident right now that I'm not the weird person for thinking Bannan isn't actually that bad - at least he wasn't that bad last night.

11:05pm League Cup show BBC1. I'll be watching. While Bannan did offer up chances for our strikers it is true at other times he played some wretched balls and in the first half did over-hit a freekick. Yes, it would be great to have competition for Bannan in the squad, or even a better player. However, he is still by default our best midfielder, and his performance and role in the defeat didn't warrant the reaction on the forum ... so I hope those who have been critical watch the football tonight and perhaps be a bit more open-minded why we lost the game. Should be on first.

For those who find Bannan hard to understand, I have found another comparison that isn't Xavi. Leon Britton - Swansea. 5'5. Not stocky. http://en.wikipedia....ki/Leon_Britton Leon Britton is in the Swansea central midfield that has beaten Chelsea 0-2 at Stamford bridge with 36% of the ball possession. Here's Swansea's whoscored.com page http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/259 Leon Britton has 18 PL appearances - rarely missed a match - but has no goals or assists this season. He doesn't take Swansea set pieces. Has same number tackles as Bannan. I think if you worked out the interceptions/minutes ratio, they will be about the same (Bannan played less time than Britton). Britton is most important to his team for his passing. But because he has no goals and assists in 18 matches he must be rubbish, right? He's had enough chances. He's a Championship player. Swansea fans must really hate him. Statistics don't tell you everything - indeed they don't!

It is primarily the LW or RW's job to help defend the wings from crosses with the LB and RB. You can't pull your CM out to do that very often. Bannan and Delph's main responsibility was defence of the front of our penalty area. None of the goals came from that direction, except the first goal, the long shot deflected into the path of the striker. There was nobody on the top of the semi-circle to close the shot down. However, you would expect the cross from the corner to have been cleared properly to begin with. There is no logic in pinning all or even the majority of the blame for the performance on the midfield. The manager isn't doing it. The news reporter isn't doing it. The strikers and the defence were most under the spotlight yesterday.

If you go back through the posts, someone else raised the point about Xavi and Modric. I replied to it. I didn't think the first half performance was particularly impressive. Whatever the reason for the "gaps" at the end, the Bradford goals didn't come from the midfield. They all came from the wings, two corners and one cross. Midfield is not to blame for the goals. Midfield created chances for the strikers who didn't score. I reiterate that point that the midfield, though it didn't play great, is not to blame for the result. All 11 players could have played better.

You are rehashing the same old criticisms which I believe have been debunked with the help of statistics. Statistics matter a lot in football because your team can play the best and still lose the game. But I don't want to over-emphasise statistics because opinion can never be eliminated even when you use statistics. Like you say, stats never tell the whole story. In this case though, I don't think I've said anything particularly strange in terms of positive comments about Bannan's play. * I've not said he was the best player on the pitch. I've said he wasn't the worst and the midfield wasn't to blame. This opinion is supported by Lambert who said the defence was to blame, and by a Guardian reporter who gave Bannan a positive comment in his game write up. * I posted criticisms of his play last night. I'm not posting positive comments and nothing else.

It's been explained many times in various ways before... set pieces for professional footballers are training ground routines. The type of corner delivered is the responsibility of the manager not the player, unless the manager tells the player to do what he wants - and a manager that did that probably wouldn't be a good one. If Bannan's floaty corners don't float right we have reason to criticise. He floats them on target the vast majority of the time and gave the forwards some scoring opportunities against Bradford from his corners.

Lambert blamed the defending against Bradford. Our midfield created the chances to win. All 11 could have worked harder but the midfield was not dominated yesterday. I agree, I think he should be more assertive and demanding, and try to play an even greater role in our attacks than he currently is doing. Xavi has defensive qualities? So does Modric? Where do you get this from? Not from statistics. http://www.whoscored.com/Teams/24 We agree Bannan isn't a defensive player at all. This season Bannan has more tackles and clearances per game than Xavi and Modric, more interceptions per game than Xavi and is level with Modric on that statistic. You could tell me Xavi and Modric play in attacking teams who have more possession so they don't get the opportunity built up high defence stats. I could reply that Bannan is playing in a team that is depressing his true attacking stats. Just another note to say, Xavi is a football genius and I am not comparing Bannan to Xavi in ability.

Would you play Xavi in midfield? I understand Bannan isn't Xavi. I mean if you literally had the real Xavi. I want to know whether you have a prejudice against short players playing in midfield or whether you don't think Bannan is creative or good enough at passing for the central midfield.

You are writing him off - for what reason? He could have got 4 assists if the strikers had scored. Writing a player off because of the failings of others around him isn't fair. I agree playing him alongside Delph isn't working well. Why blame Bannan for the fact Delph is not a specialist DM? Delph is a more attacking player, needs to go to a club that will play him in a more attacking role. Delph's attacking play is held back at Villa because he is asked to play a more defensive midfield role. He's not as versatile an attacking option as Bannan though, so will not get that chance at our club ahead of Bannan.

Opinion about Bannan is very polarised. Very similar to the Theo Walcott situation at Arsenal. Just substitute the label "hollywood ball" for "headless chicken". Now this season every Arsenal fan was his fan all along. It didn't help Walcott that he had loads of Premier League games behind him. Fans were just expecting too much too soon. The problem with young players is they're not consistent at their game and their game is not understood, so reality and fans expectations often are way out of whack. If I expected Bannan to play like Steven Gerrard I would think he was the worst player ever. I don't judge him on a Steven Gerrard awesome performance template. I'm thinking Joe Allen or Iniesta. A player like that. When they play awesome often they are hardly noticed. Bannan wasn't brilliant last night but he did what he was in the team to do, create chances. He created more chances than Delph and N'Zogbia, who did create chances. He wasn't a miracle worker though and made some bad passes, was not our best player on the nigh, and could not lift the performance of the players around him. He deserves criticism. I totally agree.