The Randy Lerner thread

[TRO]

 

 

MON left us with a huge wage bill which we're just trying to clear now.

But we were able to sign players on long term big money deals after he left.

It's only after another 2 years of pissing money away which has now resulted in serious wage cuts that lambert needs to work with.

If we were that much of a mess surely we'd have seen wage cuts similar to what we're seeing now.

Since MON left we've paid £16 million in compensation to managers and paid big money contracts to new players.

I mean people moan about MoN signing players on wages that aren't deserved and who don't contribute.

Makoun

Nzogbia

Hutton

Given

Ireland

Bent

Everything people blame MoN for continued for another 2 years after he left? How did that happen if it was all MoN's fault?

Not a soul has said "it's all MO'N's fault" - instead of imagining what you think people say, why not try reading what they actually say? - which is broadly that he partly carries some responsibility. When the wages shot up from 50 to 70 million, in one summer, that was because he selected players to sign and was partly involved in setting or agreeing wages for them over 4 and 5 year contracts.

Some of these buys were extremely poor value - no resale value, performed poorly, but were a burden not asset for the club. Yes other managers also made bad buys, and subsequent to MO'N leaving the wages have been totally in the control of Faulkner and Lerner (that's what led MO'N to leave).

So Lerner, Faulkner, MO'N, GH and AMcL all share some responsibility for the financial situation. Ultimately it's Randy's responsibility, but he's been let down by various people as well as making mistakes himself. MO'N is one of the people who made bad decisions and who carries some blame.

The circs were that when he took over he was given pretty much free reign by a man who knew little about football. That lasted for a while, then things started to change. While he was manager he made some cracking buys - Milner, Young etc. and some total stinkers. A fairly high percentage of stinkers for a top manager. Those players cost money in fees and wages, and he chose them.

Yes it would have been better for RL to employ also a football wise director, and that was his mistake. It's an ongoing weakness. That doesn't mean MO'N as well as doing much good, didn't also make some bad decisions which ended up costing the club a lot of money. He's not ulitmately responsible, but he's partly responsible as the man charged with improving the squad with all the money made available. He didn't get good value in many many instances.

Curtis Davies, Heskey, Beye, Warnock, Harewood, Shorey, Sidwell, Cuellar, Dunne. Collins, Ireland - none of these were really good value. All were poicked by MO'N to buy.

Milner, Young, Downing, etc were.

And many more were "normal value" sold for something back, or cost little but did well.

 

I find it hard to disagree with that post... well balanced.

[TRO]

Exactly.  Houllier wasn't brought in to get the best out of MON's team.  He was brought in to start a rebuilding based on a less ambitious financial plan and decided a change in the style of play was needed as part of that.  The defenders were exposed as mediocre footballers as a result.    A drop of 3 places after losing the previous year's best player and changing the style and bringing through youth actually isn't too shabby.  Unfortunately, he was not a good man manager and was a walking PR disaster, but he got the project off to a reasonably good start. Appointing McLeish was a howler that undid any rebuilding progress.  But the reason he couldn't get anyone better is that no one wanted to work within the new constraints that were a direct result of the O'Neill years.

 very feasible view

[Big_John_10]

TRO you seem to just be desperate to lay some blame for our current position on MON without anything to really back it up.

Since he left we've spent £61 million on new players and £16 million on compensation to managers.

I've also pointed out 6 players that were signed on contracts that total around £275,000 per week.

Simple question again which people don't seem to answer. Would we be in this current position if we'd hired the right man after MON and given them the exact amount of money as we've spent over the last 3 seasons? Quite clearly the answer is no. Of course we wouldn't.

Can we blame MoN for not being a top 6 club still? Yeah, he probably does deserve some blame for the club dropping from that position.

Is he to blame for our current situation? Absolutely not. Not even 1% to blame.

We had money and we had wages to spend after he left. We had plenty of opportunities to steady the ship.

Unfortunately all the things people soley blamed MoN for funnily enough continued for another 2 years after he left.

[praisedmambo]

TRO you seem to just be desperate to lay some blame for our current position on MON without anything to really back it up.

Since he left we've spent £61 million on new players and £16 million on compensation to managers.

I've also pointed out 6 players that were signed on contracts that total around £275,000 per week.

Simple question again which people don't seem to answer. Would we be in this current position if we'd hired the right man after MON and given them the exact amount of money as we've spent over the last 3 seasons? Quite clearly the answer is no. Of course we wouldn't.

Can we blame MoN for not being a top 6 club still? Yeah, he probably does deserve some blame for the club dropping from that position.

Is he to blame for our current situation? Absolutely not. Not even 1% to blame.

We had money and we had wages to spend after he left. We had plenty of opportunities to steady the ship.

Unfortunately all the things people soley blamed MoN for funnily enough continued for another 2 years after he left.

 

There is the argument that the wage bill was filled up with lots of MON signings who we couldn't shift. I think you're missing that out. Getting rid of those players was part of Houllier's plan too it seems, so some of what has happened can be put down to him having a heart attack. 

 

I think there's too much blame that goes round. Lerner made some bad decisions, McLeish alone still baffles me, and yet I am sympathetic towards him. He has put in a lot of money and the financial mess—the ridiculous wage bill came from MON 100%, as a gamble to get 4th. MON didn't have that in him. MON's legacy has definitely had a say in putting us where we are. Losing £58 million a year is no joke. 

[Pelle]

TRO you seem to just be desperate to lay some blame for our current position on MON without anything to really back it up.

Since he left we've spent £61 million on new players and £16 million on compensation to managers.

I've also pointed out 6 players that were signed on contracts that total around £275,000 per week.

Simple question again which people don't seem to answer. Would we be in this current position if we'd hired the right man after MON and given them the exact amount of money as we've spent over the last 3 seasons? Quite clearly the answer is no. Of course we wouldn't.

Can we blame MoN for not being a top 6 club still? Yeah, he probably does deserve some blame for the club dropping from that position.

Is he to blame for our current situation? Absolutely not. Not even 1% to blame.

We had money and we had wages to spend after he left. We had plenty of opportunities to steady the ship.

Unfortunately all the things people soley blamed MoN for funnily enough continued for another 2 years after he left.

 

Actually, the only who seems desperate is you who tries to put away all the blame from MON. And whilst doing that, you also blame Lambert if he won't keep us up as that's the minimum you expect from him. Even though you say that Lerner has been all shite and done nothing right and hasn't backed up his managers as he should. Either he has done that and Lambert should do better, or he hasn't and Lambert is not to blame. Or, well, you expect us to always be up there as the least thing to expect. But even when we were up there under MON Lerner was still a bad owner as we crumbled when he left. And that we crumbled was all Lerners fault and nothing to do with MON. And if it was a little bit of MON's fault Lerner should have fired him, but when MON left it was just Lerners fault and not MON's whatsoever.

 

So all in all, after reading your posts, MON was the saviour that we kicked out and he did nothing wrong, but the reason we are where we are is because of everyine else surrounding the club. The other managers and the owner, and the CEO, combined. Sounds logical.

[sharkyvilla]

I just find it weird that Big John finds total negativity in everything else to do with club, with the one exception being O'Neill.  There's nothing wrong with being a fan of his, which I was and it was really exciting under him, but I don't see how he can have been a totally positive influence looking at the evidence.  There is also this season to look at, as between Lerner and O'Neill it seems only one of them has learnt from their mistakes.  MON seems to have made the exact same errors with Sunderland albeit without the successes of Milner, Downing and Young and may put them in a hole they'll find it hard to dig themselves out of.

[Big_John_10]

I will happily say MoN over paid for some players and is partly to blame for the wage bill being so high.

He can take some blame for us falling from a top 6 club.

His time at villa has got **** all to do with our current situation though.

Edited March 17, 2013 by Big_John_10

[Big_John_10]

but the reason we are where we are is because of everyine else surrounding the club. The other managers and the owner, and the CEO, combined. Sounds logical.

Now you're getting it.

Lerner hired two piss poor managers and we kept on wasting money. Lerner then made Lambert's job difficult by limiting the budget and wages he was given. Lambert hasn't done a good job spending this limited budget and getting the best out of the team.

It's nearly 3 years since MoN left.

I've clearly shown that after he left we spent money on new players and handed out big money contracts.

He has nothing to do with our current situation.

Do you think if we'd replaced MoN with a decent manager and given the exact same funds we've spent over the last 3 years we'd be in the exact same position? Please answer me that.

[Big_John_10]

Even though you say that Lerner has been all shite and done nothing right and hasn't backed up his managers as he should. Either he has done that and Lambert should do better, or he hasn't and Lambert is not to blame.

I think it's quite clear a bit of both.

Lerner's limitations in the summer made Lambert's job difficult but IMO he didn't spend it wisely and has made poor tactical decisons for most of the season.

[sharkyvilla]

I honestly don't know how Lambert could have done any better in the transfer market, compared to what we've been used to where the value of players we signed almost got wiped off, we've in theory made a big profit on what he's spent already.  Where he's struggled is getting the best out of the senior players that he inherited which was always his biggest task, like it was for Houllier and McLeish.  You could say he's failed but it's got the point where I just think most of them are just utter write-offs, except Bent.

[Big_John_10]

I think he had it tough. He clearly wasn't backed well enough. But that's why I think he needed to be smarter with his signings.

[VillaForever1970]

TRO you seem to just be desperate to lay some blame for our current position on MON without anything to really back it up.

Since he left we've spent £61 million on new players and £16 million on compensation to managers.

I've also pointed out 6 players that were signed on contracts that total around £275,000 per week.

Simple question again which people don't seem to answer. Would we be in this current position if we'd hired the right man after MON and given them the exact amount of money as we've spent over the last 3 seasons? Quite clearly the answer is no. Of course we wouldn't.

Can we blame MoN for not being a top 6 club still? Yeah, he probably does deserve some blame for the club dropping from that position.

Is he to blame for our current situation? Absolutely not. Not even 1% to blame.

We had money and we had wages to spend after he left. We had plenty of opportunities to steady the ship.

Unfortunately all the things people soley blamed MoN for funnily enough continued for another 2 years after he left.

 

Actually, the only who seems desperate is you who tries to put away all the blame from MON. And whilst doing that, you also blame Lambert if he won't keep us up as that's the minimum you expect from him. Even though you say that Lerner has been all shite and done nothing right and hasn't backed up his managers as he should. Either he has done that and Lambert should do better, or he hasn't and Lambert is not to blame. Or, well, you expect us to always be up there as the least thing to expect. But even when we were up there under MON Lerner was still a bad owner as we crumbled when he left. And that we crumbled was all Lerners fault and nothing to do with MON. And if it was a little bit of MON's fault Lerner should have fired him, but when MON left it was just Lerners fault and not MON's whatsoever.

 

So all in all, after reading your posts, MON was the saviour that we kicked out and he did nothing wrong, but the reason we are where we are is because of everyine else surrounding the club. The other managers and the owner, and the CEO, combined. Sounds logical.

Genius, sounds about right.

For all the people who cannot let MON go there are some that still think the sun shines out his arse, the table must be tricky viewing at the moment.

[sharkyvilla]

I think he had it tough. He clearly wasn't backed well enough. But that's why I think he needed to be smarter with his signings.

 

But how?  He signed a 29 year-old Premier League quality goalkeeper for free who has won us points on his own, he signed an international centre-half for about £2m, he signed a raw striker who has tripled in value in one season, he plucked a couple of players from lower leagues who have turned into steady Premier League players (Westwood is starting to look the real deal), picked a French lad nobody had ever heard of who has won the two games he's started and has added some needed steel.  Only El Ahmadi and Bennett have struggled but could well turn into important squad players next season.  Lambert was given OK money by Lerner and he's spent it as if every penny was is own, it is exactly what we've needed to get ourselves sorted out.

[Big_John_10]

TRO you seem to just be desperate to lay some blame for our current position on MON without anything to really back it up.

Since he left we've spent £61 million on new players and £16 million on compensation to managers.

I've also pointed out 6 players that were signed on contracts that total around £275,000 per week.

Simple question again which people don't seem to answer. Would we be in this current position if we'd hired the right man after MON and given them the exact amount of money as we've spent over the last 3 seasons? Quite clearly the answer is no. Of course we wouldn't.

Can we blame MoN for not being a top 6 club still? Yeah, he probably does deserve some blame for the club dropping from that position.

Is he to blame for our current situation? Absolutely not. Not even 1% to blame.

We had money and we had wages to spend after he left. We had plenty of opportunities to steady the ship.

Unfortunately all the things people soley blamed MoN for funnily enough continued for another 2 years after he left.

 

Actually, the only who seems desperate is you who tries to put away all the blame from MON. And whilst doing that, you also blame Lambert if he won't keep us up as that's the minimum you expect from him. Even though you say that Lerner has been all shite and done nothing right and hasn't backed up his managers as he should. Either he has done that and Lambert should do better, or he hasn't and Lambert is not to blame. Or, well, you expect us to always be up there as the least thing to expect. But even when we were up there under MON Lerner was still a bad owner as we crumbled when he left. And that we crumbled was all Lerners fault and nothing to do with MON. And if it was a little bit of MON's fault Lerner should have fired him, but when MON left it was just Lerners fault and not MON's whatsoever.

 

So all in all, after reading your posts, MON was the saviour that we kicked out and he did nothing wrong, but the reason we are where we are is because of everyine else surrounding the club. The other managers and the owner, and the CEO, combined. Sounds logical.

Genius, sounds about right.

For all the people who cannot let MON go there are some that still think the sun shines out his arse, the table must be tricky viewing at the moment.

I think he's doing an awful job at Sunderland.

But he isn't to blame one bit for our current situation.

I'll ask you the same. If we'd hired a good manager after Mon and spent the exact same amount over the last 3 years do you think we'd be in this exact same position?

[Big_John_10]

I think he had it tough. He clearly wasn't backed well enough. But that's why I think he needed to be smarter with his signings.

 

But how?  He signed a 29 year-old Premier League quality goalkeeper for free who has won us points on his own, he signed an international centre-half for about £2m, he signed a raw striker who has tripled in value in one season, he plucked a couple of players from lower leagues who have turned into steady Premier League players (Westwood is starting to look the real deal), picked a French lad nobody had ever heard of who has won the two games he's started and has added some needed steel.  Only El Ahmadi and Bennett have struggled but could well turn into important squad players next season.  Lambert was given OK money by Lerner and he's spent it as if every penny was is own, it is exactly what we've needed to get ourselves sorted out.

We have one of the worst defences in the league that he put together and he didn't have to.

KEA and Bowery have been completely pointless signings so far.

I don't think a defence of Hutton Collins Clark warnock would have done worse than the defence put together by Lambert.

Instead of buying Vlaar, bennet, Lowton and KEA he could have spent the money on better quality.

Not saying it was easy but I don't believe he had to spend the money like he did.

Westwood and Benteke are absolutey brilliant signings though. Hopefully more of them will come.

[sharkyvilla]

Come off it we had that defence last year and it was utter shit and got paid ridiculous money for the privelidge, at least this lot are trying and potentially could improve.  What other international centre-halves are available for a few million quid?  I sometimes think people expect miracles.

[Big_John_10]

Come off it we had that defence last year and it was utter shit and got paid ridiculous money for the privelidge, at least this lot are trying and potentially could improve.  What other international centre-halves are available for a few million quid?  I sometimes think people expect miracles.

The defence last year let in 53 goals

We've already let in 56 goals.

Didn't say they were great but I doubt they'd have done as badly as our current defence.

Yes they could improve and Vlaar was cheap, doesn't make him good though. I don't think he's been much of an improvement.

He didn't have to rebuild the whole defence. You seem to be ignoring that.

[Fazilla]

I think he had it tough. He clearly wasn't backed well enough. But that's why I think he needed to be smarter with his signings.

 

If you think that Benteke, Westwood, Guzan, Lowton, Sylla and Vllar were not smart signings you are watching a different game to me. KEA and Bennett have been disappointing, but both were relatively cheap and have the potential to improve.  Bowery was less than 500k so it was worth taking a gamble.  Most of these players could be sold for more than we paid for them and all are on reasonable wages.

[Big_John_10]

Most of these players could be sold for more than we paid for them and all are on reasonable wages.

I thought the point of football was to win games, get points and finish as high up the table as possible.

What you've said there is pretty pointless if the end result is relegation.

I'm sure Lowton will get better and better and Vlaar will be a steady CB without being great but he didn't have to buy them and they certainly have done nothing to improve us as a team.

When I say smart signings I'm not having a moan at all his signings. I just think his limited budget could have been spent in different areas and its partly the reason we've had such a poor season.

[Pelle]

Hm, is the defence the only unit to be expected to do any defending? And if those defenders were so fantastically good, why the hell couldn't they do the same under the other managers. I mean, really good defenders can adapt and play under almost any manager.