A game of two halves

[PieFacE]

When we go a couple of goals up we really need to just learn how to hold theball better. We really miss Stan Petrov for this. He'd just get the ball and pass it sideways, then pass it back so on a so forth, if we have the ball they can't score. It helps keep everyone calm. Then the other team get frustrated and press higher which leaves space to counter attack. It's so simple.

Against the Baggies when we were up by 2 we seemed to still be trying to rush things. When really, we should have just been patient and tried knocking it around the back four for 5-10 minutes and wait for an opening. It's hardly exciting but Man UTD do that all the time, just kills the opposition momentum.

Edited January 21, 2013 by PieFacE

[AndyBM]

When we go a couple of goals up we really need to just learn how to hold theball better. We really miss Stan Petrov for this. He'd just get the ball and pass it sideways, then pass it back so on a so forth, if we have the ball they can't score. It helps keep everyone calm. Then the other team get frustrated and press higher which leaves space to counter attack. It's so simple.

and thats what happens to us over and over again, could someone email this tactic to PL?

[dont_do_it_doug.]

When we go a couple of goals up we really need to just learn how to hold theball better. We really miss Stan Petrov for this. He'd just get the ball and pass it sideways, then pass it back so on a so forth, if we have the ball they can't score. It helps keep everyone calm. Then the other team get frustrated and press higher which leaves space to counter attack. It's so simple.

Against the Baggies when we were up by 2 we seemed to still be trying to rush things. When really, we should have just been patient and tried knocking it around the back four for 5-10 minutes and wait for an opening. It's hardly exciting but Man UTD do that all the time, just kills the opposition momentum.

Experience. Belief. Calm heads.

We just need a win, desperately. We've still not recovered from the 8-0, were stumbling from one soul crushing defeat to the next. From one late equaliser against us to the next.

[TRO]

We've had this problem for a while, at least back to MON (especially once we hit March in his case). It's like it's drilled into the club's mentality somehow. We know we're going to throw away that comfortable lead the instant the second half whistle blows.

You are right and no more evident than in the cup final

Milner scores and they go staight up the other end and Dunne falls over the ball( just trying to bring it under control)....its been indemnic.

... But its no excuse, coaches on oodles of money should be way ahead of us and deal with it.

Its like a doctor saying " have you still got that rash"....yes doc " because you have failed to deal with it"

Its one thing knowing whats wrong, its another dealing with it.

[TRO]

Reading the Birmingham Mail tonight...PL says we are failing to deal with set pieces and we have done for 3 years..when asked if we lack height he said I'm not sure about that, but seemed more interested in citing the fact we should have been four up.

Call me old fashioned, but 4 goals away from home is fairly unusual( more like a trip to the seaside as a kid) I would be more inclined to say 0-2 at half time would require a closing down job, where you press, battle and nullify the opposition. you deny them time and space,(and perhaps look for any ops on the counter) when that is exactly what they did to us.

The first goal of theirs, to me, resembled a pantomine from our defence everyone clueless as to the position they should take up....I thought they were queing up for a team photo insteading of picking up opposition players up.

Paul Lambert has now been here long enough to start impressing his opinions (he makes in the B/ Mail) up on the players.

I do have a worry with the way we play, this expansive open game we play is entertaining to watch, but its nail biting football.... we have to be 6 up before we are confident of winning.

We need to learn how to close the game down.

Edited January 21, 2013 by TRO

[TRO]

When we go a couple of goals up we really need to just learn how to hold theball better. We really miss Stan Petrov for this. He'd just get the ball and pass it sideways, then pass it back so on a so forth, if we have the ball they can't score. It helps keep everyone calm. Then the other team get frustrated and press higher which leaves space to counter attack. It's so simple.

Against the Baggies when we were up by 2 we seemed to still be trying to rush things. When really, we should have just been patient and tried knocking it around the back four for 5-10 minutes and wait for an opening. It's hardly exciting but Man UTD do that all the time, just kills the opposition momentum.

I just think we are like chalk and cheese

When we have the ball and the opposition decide to allow us time and space, we are a really good side.

When the opposition decide to deny us time and space, we enter in to a physical game that we are ill equipped to deal with....in such circumstances we are out muscled, we are lightweight and players just brush the majority of our players to one side.

We also have a tendency to be naive in terms of positional play when we are without the ball, something perhaps experience will help with.

PL, denys experience is an issue.

I would like to ask him ... " so what is the issue"...I'd like to know.

This team of ours seems incapable of digging in which is what is required when we have capitalised on our bit of undoubted skill.

Its going to be nip and tuck ,I suspect.

Edited January 21, 2013 by TRO

[PompeyVillan]

It's not necessarily a 'psychology thing' with our own players at all. You can change the whole personnel to a set who have no experience of conceding later, and it could still happen again and again.

Why?

Supporters don't change. Their memories aren't erased. And as important, as the psychology of our own players, is the opposition belief.

They will have a reserve of confidence that you will be weak toward the end of the game. This weakness at times may be transmitted through the fans, who get less vocal, to the players.

They will be encouraged to push forward in the belief your resistance will crumble.

So it isn't necessarily a psychological thing, and yet it is a psychological thing?

It's a negative, perpetuating cycle that we need to get out. Of course it's psychological but I think to a lesser extent it is physical and tactical too.

As much as McLeish got panned on here for his negative tactics, I recall many times where instructed the players to push up, not drop so deep. He was continually haranguing them, and yet their instinct was to drop deep.

It's become a club mentality. The players have seemed to have been playing frightened for a few seasons now, since MON left really.

[Con]

So it isn't necessarily a psychological thing, and yet it is a psychological thing?

It can occur without it being our players fault, because 1. the memories (nerves) are retained and then transmitted to the players by the Villa fans (who, unlike the players, don't change) 2. the memories are retained by the opposition players and transmitted to them through the manager and his decisions.

It's a negative, perpetuating cycle that we need to get out. Of course it's psychological but I think to a lesser extent it is physical and tactical too.

All problems can also be thought of as opportunities.

We have a completely different team to previous teams that let in late goals. There is no psychological hang-over with respect to our players.

The opportunity is that the opposition will be confident enough to take risks to get a goal back against us - so we should make the appropriate defensive substitution 20 minutes to go, dig-in and expect a chance or two to be handed to ourselves by the risk-takers late on and roll out easy winners.

As much as McLeish got panned on here for his negative tactics, I recall many times where instructed the players to push up, not drop so deep. He was continually haranguing them, and yet their instinct was to drop deep.

McLeish was criticised for playing for draws not the win. That negative mindset that makes players think first about not conceding which makes them instinctively pull pack.

If you teach them to think about how many goals they are going to score, they want to get forward. It is then up to the manager to restrain them by making the appropriate defensive sub.

Fundamental rule of football is you win games by scoring not by not conceding.

It's become a club mentality. The players have seemed to have been playing frightened for a few seasons now, since MON left really.

I disagree... it need not be, for the reasons above. It's a mentality that can be transmitted to completely new sets of players by the fans.

To the extent the opposition is emboldened to take risks toward the end of the game, the right tactics from us and we will exploit the opportunities presented to us and run away with the win.

Edited January 21, 2013 by Con

[briny_ear]

We've had this problem for a while, at least back to MON (especially once we hit March in his case). It's like it's drilled into the club's mentality somehow. We know we're going to throw away that comfortable lead the instant the second half whistle blows.

Since the thread began with some statistics, that statement really needs to be challenged on the basis of what the stats show.

This wasn't really too much of a problem under MON, or DOL before him. Sure, we would get pegged back in few games but in as many if not more we would come from behind and pick up points. In what was probably MON's best season, 2008-9, we won 10 and drew 3 of the 13 games where we were leading at half time, we only dropped 9 points from winning positions in total and we picked up 15 points from losing positions. And in all of his seasons, our second half performances were relatively stronger than the first half.

The problem first emerged big time with Houllier. In 2010-11 we only managed 1 point from the 10 matches where we were losing at half time and we leached 26 points overall from winning positions. And our second half performances were worse than the first half for the first time for quite a few seasons. That confounded me a bit because my original feeling was that it is the woeful state of our current midfield that has brought this problem on but Houllier had a strong midfield - Petrov, Downing and Young, what's the problem?

McLeish stabilised things a bit, in a very McLeish-ish sort of way, i.e. we drew nearly half of our matches so whatever the score at half time, you had a fair idea where we would end up. The most common experience under him was actually to take the lead, get pegged back and then play out a draw.

And things have just plummeted under Lambert. We have taken no points at all from the 6 games where we have been losing at half time, and have only won 2 of the 7 where we have led at half time. We've only managed two points from losing positions and have dropped 16 points having held a lead.

Since 2010 the team has lost the resilience it once had in spades. There are no doubt many reasons for this - I do think it's partly a consequence of playing 3-5-2 - but it is the serious loss of skill and leadership in midfield that I keep coming back to.Take the Albion game as an example. Having gone 2-0 up, we really needed the midfield to put a stranglehold on the game, slow things down, keep tight on the Albion midfield and starve them of possession, and pass it around in the middle of the pitch while looking for chances to get the ball to our forwards in promising positions. Instead we allowed Albion to bully us off the ball and flood the wings against our hopeless fullbacks.

For me, this is down to replenishing the midfield to get some skill, experience and leadership so we can take control of games once we get ahead or calm things down of we go behind. If we don't do this in the next nine days, we really do risk seeing the pattern of wilting under pressure continuing all season.

[PussEKatt]

The manager has to take some blame as well.We started off playing 3-4-3

After going 2 goals up why did PL not go to a 4-4-2 ? its not like 4-4-2 is a defensive formation or anything, we still have the oppotunity to add to our score but we are strengthening our defence. FFS we all know our defence is not good so why leave it at 3-4-3 ???

[Con]

The manager has to take some blame as well.We started off playing 3-4-3

After going 2 goals up why did PL not go to a 4-4-2 ? its not like 4-4-2 is a defensive formation or anything, we still have the oppotunity to add to our score but we are strengthening our defence. FFS we all know our defence is not good so why leave it at 3-4-3 ???

Then bring Bannan on and play him in the crucial middle of the pitch and make our defense even weaker. Bizarre.

I like Bannan but he is an offensive player. You wouldn't bring on Iniesta if you wanted to close out a game.

If he wanted to win the game even more than 1-2, that's just gambling, which is not something I would do.

[tarjei]