All-Purpose Religion Thread

[PussEKatt]

Reading these posts I get the impression that everyone here believes that chriastianity is/is not THE relegion?!

What about the Islmanic,Buddist,Mormon relegions ? All these others have huge followers. So, first off Chriastianiny may not be the right relegion ( which means that God is a fairy tale ) and the real god is Budda,Allah or whoever the Morman god is.

I don"t believe in god anyway, but the point I am trying to make is that maybe all of you are arguing about the wrong god anyway ? and that brings other topics into consideration eg re-incarnation.

[mjmooney]

Reading these posts I get the impression that everyone here believes that chriastianity is/is not THE relegion?!

What about the Islmanic,Buddist,Mormon relegions ? All these others have huge followers. So, first off Chriastianiny may not be the right relegion ( which means that God is a fairy tale ) and the real god is Budda,Allah or whoever the Morman god is.

I don"t believe in god anyway, but the point I am trying to make is that maybe all of you are arguing about the wrong god anyway ? and that brings other topics into consideration eg re-incarnation.

It's the squabbling between religions that amuses me the most.

They can't all be right.

Either there's a god who is totally different from what they all claim.

Or there's a god who is some sort of amalgamation of the religions.

Or there isn't one at all, and they're all just pissing in the wind.

I think you can guess my vote.

[Chindie]

The god of Islam, Allah, is the same god of Christianity and Judaism. The Qur'an is, by Muslims, effectively considered the third book of the same god that inspired the Torah and the Bible. They simply believe that he revealed a third tome to Mohammad that had new teachings and that those teachings made the rest a little redundant. Hence the similarities between the 3 faiths, and hence why Muslims have the same stories and characters in their faith, although some things are slightly changed - Jesus is not the son of god for Muslims, but they believe he was a special man who was a prophet of god. Many would argue, and do, that fundamentalist Islam is a particularly dangerous faith because of the nature of Islam as believing it got the final word from god - it instantly puts it into conflict with Judaism, who got the first word, and Christianity, who got the first word and then kinda got the second via spokesman.

Mormons are simply a particularly mental form of Christian. They beleive in stuff like man being able to become an angel in heaven and the like. You'd think that by the time the Mormon church is founded people wouldn't simply believe a chap when he said an angel told him all about a new book of god, but apparently not.

Buddhism doesn't have a god, really. Some people argue that Sidhartha Gautama basically became a god in effect in the teachings of Buddhism, by becoming truly enlightened, but I don't think many Buddhists believe he was anything other than a truly, truly special man.

Christianity gets argued a lot because it's the faith most of us encounter the most, and sadly because we've got a resident Jehovah.

For what it's worth, they're all nonsense. Islam can be particularly evil too. Christianity can be particularly nasty. The Mormons believe and do some truly offensive stuff. And so on.

[PussEKatt]

You can"t mention re-incarnation to a christian, they go all wobbly yet I know that the hindu relegion believes in it.So what about ghost"s then ? are they like half re-incarnated or what ?

I do know that there have been a LOT of lives lost because of relegion thru the ages. That"s a good advertisment for relegion isn"t it ?

[Brumerican]

You can"t mention re-incarnation to a christian, they go all wobbly yet I know that the hindu relegion believes in it.So what about ghost"s then ? are they like half re-incarnated or what ?

I do know that there have been a LOT of lives lost because of relegion thru the ages. That"s a good advertisment for relegion isn"t it ?

What are ghosts ?

Imaginary .

[PussEKatt]

You can"t mention re-incarnation to a christian, they go all wobbly yet I know that the hindu relegion believes in it.So what about ghost"s then ? are they like half re-incarnated or what ?

I do know that there have been a LOT of lives lost because of relegion thru the ages. That"s a good advertisment for relegion isn"t it ?

What are ghosts ?

Imaginary .

There was a picture of one on "A Current Affair" a news type program here in Perth a few years ago, also there a lot of apparently documented cases all over the place, as well as re-incarnation stuff.

[limpid]

There was a picture of one on "A Current Affair" a news type program here in Perth a few years ago, also there a lot of apparently documented cases all over the place, as well as re-incarnation stuff.

Ghosts are in the eye of the beholder. It's all hokum. Mediumship is a Victorian parlour entertainment. Ouija boards are a children's toy. If ghosts were real then every one that you saw would be a dinosaur as there are a lot more dead dinosaurs than dead people.

[mjmooney]

I've talked about this before, but I'll revive it now.

As far as I can see there are three main reasons people join (or remain in) religions:

(1) Cultural. You grew up with it, all your friends and family are in it, the rituals are familiar and comforting.

I can understand this. It must be difficult to reject something if it means you make yourself an outcast from your community, and take away your emotional safety net. I expect both Gary and Ivan can confirm.

(2) Intellectual (for want of a better word). You get this a lot with the highly educated types who still want the comfort blanket, as well as the people who don't really want to think about the hard science. The universe must have come from somewhere, the eye is too complex to have evolved, etc., etc. Very hard to argue them out of it due to the level of willful denial.

(3) (And this is the one we haven't seen much of on this thread - yet) - divine revelation. We've all heard it: "Oh, I was a cynic like you, but one day I heard Jesus call to me, deep in my soul, and I was filled with the holy spirit, it was better than any drug. And you can find him too, all you have to do is open your heart and ask for forgiveness..."

A friend of mine once said "When we talk to God, it is called 'prayer'. When God talks back, it's called 'schizophrenia'".

Most religious subscribers I've met fall into types 1 and 2, usually a combination of the two.

Type 3 though, is the hardest one to refute - and therefore a challenge. I like a challenge.

[CrackpotForeigner]

Type 3 though, is the hardest one to refute - and therefore a challenge. I like a challenge.

Nothing against a challenge, but using logic to change the mind of a delusional schizophrenic really is a waste of breath!

As for Mormons, South Park said it best.

I can see that episode making its way onto the television screens of America quite frequently in the next few months. It is pretty much the most bonkers of all religions, with the possible exception of JW.

[legov]

For what it's worth, they're all nonsense. Islam can be particularly evil too. Christianity can be particularly nasty. The Mormons believe and do some truly offensive stuff. And so on.

Now now that's unfair stereotyping, how dare you even claim Mormonism as Christianity. The Mormons are a cult, Christianity is not.

[mjmooney]

The Mormons are a cult, Christianity is not.

That's arguable.

[mjmooney]

I really don't know where to begin with this one.

Church refuses boy with Down's syndrome Holy Communion

The parents of a boy with Down's syndrome have criticised the Roman Catholic Church for not allowing him to take his first Holy Communion.

In a letter to Clare Ellarby, the Diocese of Leeds said her son Denum, seven, had "limited concentration" and was not prepared for the experience.

Mrs Ellarby, from Batley, said: "It's just disgusting. I feel really let down by the Catholic faith."

The diocese said it hoped Denum would be able to participate in the future.

Denum attends St Mary's Catholic Primary School and St Mary's Catholic Church in Batley.

In its letter, the diocese said Denum had "limited concentration, doesn't really access the RE curriculum and does not enjoy going to Mass".

Family tradition

It said if Denum took his first Holy Communion when he was "better placed to understand" it would "enrich his whole experience".

Mrs Ellarby said: "I have been in that Catholic church all my life, as a child I went there every Sunday.

"I can't get there every Sunday now, it's difficult with Denum and I have got a younger child.

"But generations of my family have been baptised, made our Holy Communion, we had our marriage blessing there and we feel really let down."

The diocese said children could "only proceed to the sacrament of first Communion when they take part in the Church's life and understand the Church's faith".

"In regard to these sacraments Denum's family has not participated in the regular life of the Church or in the preparation preceding first Communion.

"We hope that this will change as Denum grows and we are working with him and his family to help him achieve this."

Holy Communion for Down's syndrome boy after church ban

An eight-year-old boy with Down's syndrome who was refused an opportunity to receive his first Holy Communion has taken the sacrament.

The Diocese of Leeds previously said Denum Ellarby, of Gomersal, West Yorks, was unprepared for the experience.

The refusal was revoked after Denum took part in weekly one-to-one Communion classes with a volunteer from the diocese.

His father Darren Ellarby said: "He's now been accepted by the church."

Denum took Communion at St Mary's Catholic Church in Batley, with classmates from St Mary's Catholic Primary School.

His mother Clare Ellarby said: "It means a lot to us that this day has come and everything has gone just as we want it to."

She added it was a relief after "everything we've been through to get here".

Mrs Ellarby had fought for Denum to be allowed to participate and take this "religious step" with his school friends.

The Diocese of Leeds declined to comment on the altered position.

BBC

[bickster]

The Mormons are a cult, Christianity is not.

That's arguable.

All religions are cults, it's just that some cults are bigger than others.

[legov]

I can understand this. It must be difficult to reject something if it means you make yourself an outcast from your community, and take away your emotional safety net. I expect both Gary and Ivan can confirm.

Odd you say that Mike, I felt more of an outcast in church than I did at school (where most people were not Christians). So maybe it's fair to say that dealing with the emotions of religion withdrawal was easier for me than it was for most (de)converts.

Do feel awkward around my family at times though, highly religious types them.

The universe must have come from somewhere

While I'm inclined to agree with you that the creation of the universe probably had nothing to do with the supernatural, I can see the sense in this argument. What doesn't make sense is the idea that one specific god is for some reason the one that exists, rather than any of the other gazillion gods mankind has dreamt up, even though there is no evidence to suggest that this is so.

Even more ludicrous is the practice of throwing irrelevant theology into the mix - believing that some man living 2000 years ago was simultaneously God and man, believing that bread and wine turn into flesh and blood when ingested at Mass, believing that one has to pray steadfastly five times a day in the direction of Mecca, all these have absolutely nothing to do with the first cause argument. It pisses me off whenever a theist uses this to facilely "support" not the idea of a first creator, but the entire edifice of his/her religion. Crazy shit.

[legov]

The Mormons are a cult, Christianity is not.

That's arguable.

All religions are cults, it's just that some cults are bigger than others.

I was kidding it was meant to be a humorous reference to the fact that my father's pretty fond of referring to fringe religions as cults, yet insists that the popular ones like Christianity and Islam are not.

Edit:

If pinpointing the cowardice of one christian is deemed bad manners then so be it . I can live with that . It's not like I am condemning someone to an eternity of torture and revelling in it.

Brilliantly put.

[mjmooney]

The Mormons are a cult, Christianity is not.

That's arguable.

All religions are cults, it's just that some cults are bigger than others.

I was kidding it was meant to be a humorous reference to the fact that my father's pretty fond of referring to fringe religions as cults, yet insists that the popular ones like Christianity and Islam are not.

It's very much like the way Christians scoff at 'superstitions', without a hint of irony.

[Chindie]

I really don't know where to begin with this one.

Church refuses boy with Down's syndrome Holy Communion

The parents of a boy with Down's syndrome have criticised the Roman Catholic Church for not allowing him to take his first Holy Communion.

In a letter to Clare Ellarby, the Diocese of Leeds said her son Denum, seven, had "limited concentration" and was not prepared for the experience.

Mrs Ellarby, from Batley, said: "It's just disgusting. I feel really let down by the Catholic faith."

The diocese said it hoped Denum would be able to participate in the future.

Denum attends St Mary's Catholic Primary School and St Mary's Catholic Church in Batley.

In its letter, the diocese said Denum had "limited concentration, doesn't really access the RE curriculum and does not enjoy going to Mass".

Family tradition

It said if Denum took his first Holy Communion when he was "better placed to understand" it would "enrich his whole experience".

Mrs Ellarby said: "I have been in that Catholic church all my life, as a child I went there every Sunday.

"I can't get there every Sunday now, it's difficult with Denum and I have got a younger child.

"But generations of my family have been baptised, made our Holy Communion, we had our marriage blessing there and we feel really let down."

The diocese said children could "only proceed to the sacrament of first Communion when they take part in the Church's life and understand the Church's faith".

"In regard to these sacraments Denum's family has not participated in the regular life of the Church or in the preparation preceding first Communion.

"We hope that this will change as Denum grows and we are working with him and his family to help him achieve this."

Holy Communion for Down's syndrome boy after church ban

An eight-year-old boy with Down's syndrome who was refused an opportunity to receive his first Holy Communion has taken the sacrament.

The Diocese of Leeds previously said Denum Ellarby, of Gomersal, West Yorks, was unprepared for the experience.

The refusal was revoked after Denum took part in weekly one-to-one Communion classes with a volunteer from the diocese.

His father Darren Ellarby said: "He's now been accepted by the church."

Denum took Communion at St Mary's Catholic Church in Batley, with classmates from St Mary's Catholic Primary School.

His mother Clare Ellarby said: "It means a lot to us that this day has come and everything has gone just as we want it to."

She added it was a relief after "everything we've been through to get here".

Mrs Ellarby had fought for Denum to be allowed to participate and take this "religious step" with his school friends.

The Diocese of Leeds declined to comment on the altered position.

BBC

Almost dodged a bullet.

I suppose theres a quip to be had about the cardinals not fancying kids with Downs or something.

[norton65ca]

I can understand this. It must be difficult to reject something if it means you make yourself an outcast from your community, and take away your emotional safety net. I expect both Gary and Ivan can confirm.

Odd you say that Mike, I felt more of an outcast in church than I did at school (where most people were not Christians). So maybe it's fair to say that dealing with the emotions of religion withdrawal was easier for me than it was for most (de)converts.

Do feel awkward around my family at times though, highly religious types them.

The universe must have come from somewhere

While I'm inclined to agree with you that the creation of the universe probably had nothing to do with the supernatural, I can see the sense in this argument. What doesn't make sense is the idea that one specific god is for some reason the one that exists, rather than any of the other gazillion gods mankind has dreamt up, even though there is no evidence to suggest that this is so.

Even more ludicrous is the practice of throwing irrelevant theology into the mix - believing that some man living 2000 years ago was simultaneously God and man, believing that bread and wine turn into flesh and blood when ingested at Mass, believing that one has to pray steadfastly five times a day in the direction of Mecca, all these have absolutely nothing to do with the first cause argument. It pisses me off whenever a theist uses this to facilely "support" not the idea of a first creator, but the entire edifice of his/her religion. Crazy shit.

I had already spent a considerable period apart from regular church attendance, and even my contact with my old Christian friends had become somewhat sporadic. The psychological impact of realizing that the entire worldview was turned upside down was much more traumatic.

I had often felt out of place and decidedly uncomfortable in any church but the "Street Ministry" I had had my initial salvation experience in. It was "Laid back" in the extreme for a Christian church.

I agree very much with the last bit, the First cause issue should be considered as a totally separate thing to any specific theology. It's one thing to try to establish by argument a designer (deism?) and quite another to step from that into considering "revealed " religion of any kind, whether monotheistic, polytheistic or whatever.

[Chindie]

As for the discussion of cults, well they all are aren't they? Some are just larger than others and have managed to make themselves legitimate. The smaller ones are slightly more infuriating, as we've seen in this very thread they're quite good at the fingers in ears approach to criticism.

I return to my comments on fanaticism.

[norton65ca]

This is the issue I was attempting to deal with while conversing with Julie. My issue is with the foundation of the whole damn thing, the bible. I will no longer accept this pile of documents as being a message from the divine, and therefore, quoting scriptures as justification for a position on something claimed to be historical ends the debate, quite frankly.

When one comes up with statements like "Nimrod founded the first human City Babylon " or "Moses' account in Genesis" and proceeds to treat the accounts in the Pentateuch as if they were more than mythology, but actual historical truth, when there is little if any evidence that any of the events mentioned actually occurred, we are at an impasse.

I have linked articles that demonstrate clearly that the evidence points to the idea that the Old Testament was collected and assembled at a far later period than it has traditionally been thought to have been, and that an elaborate pseudo history and mythology was created by a people in captivity with the assistance of a far more sophisticated civilization that they were immersed in. Basically, a people enslaved and humiliated created for themselves a collective mythology and history that elevated their status and gave them a national consciousness and identity. I believe it was survival of their culture which led to the assembling of the OT from folk stories, myths, songs and other fragments from who knows how many sources which led to the Old Testament. The Penateuch and the histories were the imaginative work of a number of people who adapted stories and tales into a cohesive narrative that in my view was co-ordinated in a relatively short period of time.

There is zero evidence of anything written in the Hebrew tongue prior to 1000 BC. I am not here declaring unequivocally that the entire OT is a work of fiction, but there are enormous swathes of it that are, and to parse between the rest of the text to find that which may be history would be nigh on impossible. The Exodus, for example, a central focal point of the Old Testament narrative concerning the trials of the Israelites, is almost certainly completely fictional, there is not a shred of evidence whatsoever that a huge contingent of people (many thousands) were wandering and encamped in Sinai for forty years, and yet there is evidence of many smaller societies that had more of a fleeting impact on the lands around them that we have found from many centuries ago.

The very fact that I mentioned earlier of towns and settlements mentioned within the text of Genesis that weren't founded until much later periods should indicate a late authorship. It's a no brainer.

I no longer wish to belabour this particular point however, because Julie's position is very entrenched, and there is no point in engaging in a debate which would almost certainly become circular in the extreme. In addition, I had not intended to put myself in an antagonistic or hostile position. I respect her tenacity, although I fear her inability to consider non theistic sources and give them the same respect she holds for her biased evangelical sources will cripple her search for truth. I can, however, totally relate to her position; if there really is a devil, one must be alert for his wily tricks and schemes to deceive even the elect, if it were possible...

Fortunately, although the human race faces a number of perilous challenges, the malevolent and cunning plots of a fallen angelic being that wishes the destruction and degradation of mankind isn't one of them.