JulieB Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Have to say JulieB and steaknchips must be trolling. Excuse me I only entered this discussion because my name was banded about by others! I do not troll and I will not argue about matters with people who just use a debate about the Bible and it's validity to insult others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieB Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 What is truly Satanic is refusing a child receive a life-saving blood transfusion because of following a translation of the bible by Charles Taze Russell. I think you'll find their is a thread all about that from a while ago. I suggest you read it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NowDoINotLikeThat Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Have to say JulieB and steaknchips must be trolling. Excuse me I only entered this discussion because my name was banded about by others! I do not troll and I will not argue about matters with people who just use a debate about the Bible and it's validity to insult others. Fair enough. You really a Jeehovah witness? Seems some bastardised version of Kabballah to me rather than christian.. Ive not read much of this thread but do Jeehovahs Witness's believe the devil is control of planet at this time etc? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JulieB Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Jehovah's Witness is a cult and has about as much veracity as believing in Jedi. Well you are entitled to your opinion and if you wish to hold that viewpoint then feel free.... there are others on here who are also of the same faith. However I am NOT going to discuss it with you anymore. This is completely off the original topic. I warned SteakandChips not to discuss anything remotely concerning the Bible because it would just degenerate into an exercise in mud slinging just as it has. I'm out of here anyhow.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwivillan Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Mud slinging is how you describe people disagreeing with your cult's insane interpretation of the bible. The Witnesses are told they will be persecuted when they go door to door teaching their doctrines. They are further told that this is simply the enemy fighting against God's organization because they are in "the truth." So, when someone disagrees with them, they are conditioned to reflect on what the Watchtower has told them. They then feel confirmed in being in God's true organization on earth (like all cults claim). They are strongly encouraged to have friends and acquaintances that are only JW's, thereby keeping outside examination to a minimum. They are told to shun those who leave their group, for in this way there is no way to see why someone has left and no way to find out that they are in error from those who have found the truth in Christ. They are conditioned to shy away from any real biblically knowledgeable person. An example of this is frequently found on the Internet. It is obvious that critical examination of their doctrines is not encouraged by the Watchtower Organization. Typical behaviour of religious people confronted with resistance to the ideas they espouse of which JW are the extreme. 1. Make outrageous claims. 2. Cite confirmation of their outrageous claims written by someone who believes the same outrageous claims. 3. Say things like you have your beliefs and I have mine. 4. Refuse to acknowledge gaping holes in their theories. 5. Accuse non-believers of being disrespectful. 6. Give up and leave. I hope we've given you lots to talk about at your bible study cult meeting. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NowDoINotLikeThat Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 I warned SteakandChips not to discuss anything remotely concerning the Bible because it would just degenerate into an exercise in mud slinging just as it has. I'm out of here anyhow.... seriously tho .... even most christians don't believe the bible in same literal way you seemingly do . Especially the stories of Noah etc... And why are Jeehovah witness's (like yourself) so fond of the old testament anyhow?.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwivillan Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 I warned SteakandChips not to discuss anything remotely concerning the Bible because it would just degenerate into an exercise in mud slinging just as it has. I'm out of here anyhow.... seriously tho .... even most christians don't believe the bible in same literal way you seemingly do . Especially the stories of Noah etc... And why are Jeehovah witness's (like yourself) so fond of the old testament anyhow?.... Here's a good description of JW. It's from a Christian perspective but describes it's cult-like nature well. The Jehovah's Witnesses are discouraged from looking into Jehovah's Witness history or old Watchtower literature which is replete with contradictions, altered doctrines, and false prophecies. Instead, they are indoctrinated repeatedly against basic Christian doctrines (Trinity, deity of Christ, etc.) and into the notion that they alone are the true servants of God and that all others are either in "Christendom" or simply unbelievers. Primarily, the Jehovah's Witness organization is a mind-control organization that uses its people to pass out literature and send in "donations" to the headquarters in Brooklyn, New York. The Watchtower organization of the Jehovah's Witnesses is a non-Christian organization that uses its people to promulgate false doctrines, and collects "contributions" for distribution of a multitudinous amount of literature, and expand its grip into the lives of its members and their families. It is a non-Christian cult. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legov Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 I warned SteakandChips not to discuss anything remotely concerning the Bible because it would just degenerate into an exercise in mud slinging just as it has. I'm out of here anyhow.... seriously tho .... even most christians don't believe the bible in same literal way you seemingly do . Especially the stories of Noah etc... And why are Jeehovah witness's (like yourself) so fond of the old testament anyhow?.... Here's a good description of JW. It's from a Christian perspective but describes it's cult-like nature well. The Jehovah's Witnesses are discouraged from looking into Jehovah's Witness history or old Watchtower literature which is replete with contradictions, altered doctrines, and false prophecies. Instead, they are indoctrinated repeatedly against basic Christian doctrines (Trinity, deity of Christ, etc.) and into the notion that they alone are the true servants of God and that all others are either in "Christendom" or simply unbelievers. Primarily, the Jehovah's Witness organization is a mind-control organization that uses its people to pass out literature and send in "donations" to the headquarters in Brooklyn, New York. The Watchtower organization of the Jehovah's Witnesses is a non-Christian organization that uses its people to promulgate false doctrines, and collects "contributions" for distribution of a multitudinous amount of literature, and expand its grip into the lives of its members and their families. It is a non-Christian cult. No different from mainstream Christianity then Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legov Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Jehovah's Witness is a cult and has about as much veracity as believing in Jedi. Well you are entitled to your opinion and if you wish to hold that viewpoint then feel free.... there are others on here who are also of the same faith. However I am NOT going to discuss it with you anymore. This is completely off the original topic. I warned SteakandChips not to discuss anything remotely concerning the Bible because it would just degenerate into an exercise in mud slinging just as it has. I'm out of here anyhow.... With all due respect it isn't just mud slinging though, it's mud slinging and name-calling along with a lot of valid points that have been made that you and steaknchips just haven't satisfactorily addressed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NowDoINotLikeThat Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 I warned SteakandChips not to discuss anything remotely concerning the Bible because it would just degenerate into an exercise in mud slinging just as it has. I'm out of here anyhow.... seriously tho .... even most christians don't believe the bible in same literal way you seemingly do . Especially the stories of Noah etc... And why are Jeehovah witness's (like yourself) so fond of the old testament anyhow?.... Here's a good description of JW. It's from a Christian perspective but describes it's cult-like nature well. The Jehovah's Witnesses are discouraged from looking into Jehovah's Witness history or old Watchtower literature which is replete with contradictions, altered doctrines, and false prophecies. Instead, they are indoctrinated repeatedly against basic Christian doctrines (Trinity, deity of Christ, etc.) and into the notion that they alone are the true servants of God and that all others are either in "Christendom" or simply unbelievers. Primarily, the Jehovah's Witness organization is a mind-control organization that uses its people to pass out literature and send in "donations" to the headquarters in Brooklyn, New York. The Watchtower organization of the Jehovah's Witnesses is a non-Christian organization that uses its people to promulgate false doctrines, and collects "contributions" for distribution of a multitudinous amount of literature, and expand its grip into the lives of its members and their families. It is a non-Christian cult. No different from mainstream Christianity then Is bit different tho ! Jevoahs witness's have obsession with bloodlines , the Old Testament , end of the world and have far more in common with weird Kabbalah offshoots of Judasim than christianty. If youre talking of Catholic church then i agree. Truely vile . Strangest place ive ever been was the Vatican. But think for instance the notion that Jesus & co never exsisted is probably wrong. Some of his disciples certainly did. And when i say Jesus existed i dont mean "SON OF GOD" - i mean just someone who was probably around became a martyr like figure and did piss off ppl in JUdeau under Roman occupation of the time. Im not religious myself but rmber thinking how un-christian the Vatican was when visited. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
legov Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 It is similar. Repeated indoctrinations through sermons? Check. Discouraged from questioning? Check. Publication of literature to fill up private coffers? Check. It's still a cult, the only difference is that it is a mainstream one and hence most of us euphemistically call it a "religion". Not that I (generally) have any problem with people believing in it mind, but it's still all quite silly to me. To the hardcore believer, all other religions are cults. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kiwivillan Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 If people want to belong to a cult/religious organization, I say good luck. If they want to come on VT and spout Watchtower nonsense and expect not to be called on it with derision well... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFC-Prideofbrum Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 At least SnC's main forum posts now start to make sense. Reading this was a good laugh. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozvillafan Posted November 7, 2011 VT Supporter Share Posted November 7, 2011 It is similar. Repeated indoctrinations through sermons? Check. Discouraged from questioning? Check. Publication of literature to fill up private coffers? Check. It's still a cult, the only difference is that it is a mainstream one and hence most of us euphemistically call it a "religion". Not that I (generally) have any problem with people believing in it mind, but it's still all quite silly to me. To the hardcore believer, all other religions are cults. I could take your arguments and apply them to atheism with the sole difference being it does not call itself a religion.... .... even though it's believers act very much like believers of any other religion. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrackpotForeigner Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 One definition of a cult is "a religion that seeks to convert adult followers from other beliefs". By this definition a cult seems relatively respectable, for a religion. The alternative to a cult is therefore a religion that relies for it's existence on indoctrinating innocent children. Why a "cult" should therefore be frowned upon more than a "religion" is puzzling. Could it be that established religions simply see them as a threat to their monopoly on the minds of the gullible? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrackpotForeigner Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 It is similar. Repeated indoctrinations through sermons? Check. Discouraged from questioning? Check. Publication of literature to fill up private coffers? Check. It's still a cult, the only difference is that it is a mainstream one and hence most of us euphemistically call it a "religion". Not that I (generally) have any problem with people believing in it mind, but it's still all quite silly to me. To the hardcore believer, all other religions are cults. I could take your arguments and apply them to atheism with the sole difference being it does not call itself a religion.... .... even though it's believers act very much like believers of any other religion.Fwiw I don't call myself an atheist. Nor do I call myself an afairyist, an afatherchrismasist or an aleprechaunist for that matter. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozvillafan Posted November 7, 2011 VT Supporter Share Posted November 7, 2011 That was just some boring copy n paste work which you seem to enjoy as you obviously can't think for yourself . If I had to pick some contradictions from the bible myself I would probably start off with the idea of an all loving God ordering the murders of innocent babies. Then I would ask how an all loving God could condone slavery . And rape. And jealousy . And incest . And human sacrifice. And the physical mutilation of children . And looting . And prostituting your own children . It goes on and on. Now even I know these things are evil so why doesn't this all loving God know it too ? This is a massive and fatal contradiction IMO and just goes to show that the god of the bible is the fictional work of men who projected their own short comings upon their fictional literary creation . Man wasn't made in God's image....we made him in ours . I'll take a stab. The concept of an "all-loving" God is flawed. The bible does not present this, else God could not exact justice. What the bible teaches is a Holy God - that is, a God that is set apart from all else and, in particular, from sin. It is God's "holiness" that defines the other attributes of his character: love, patience, justice, anger, wrath etc. So to describe how God can do some of the things you mentioned: a) Killing babies And all animals/possessions and anyting to do with that culture. A complete wipe off the face of the earth. Why? Because of their sin. What sin? Child sacrifice, prostitution, rape etc in the "worship" of their idols. What about God's love? He had his own people in captivity for 400 years giving the Amorites time to repent even though they did these detestible things. But they grew worse. (Genesis 15:16) So this is God's justice? What kind of God would wipe out innocent children?! Nobody is innocent. The bible teaches that all men have sinned and been sinful from birth (Psalm 51:5). What happens to children after death who are not at the age of understanding is another thing, but that's for another discussion. The big deal here is that, after Adam had sinned and cursed us all to a life of sinfulness, God's justice could have demanded that history end right there and then. In fact, that is exactly what he said would happen to Adam before he sinned (Genesis 2:16-17). We exist because God did not do as he rightly could have. Slavery I'm surprised at this one. I know I am an employee of somebody else. Essentially, I am their slave. Now I have the option to leave that slavery (if only to be in slavery to another, sadly) but this is exactly how slavery under Israel's laws was done. Slavery was a choice, not a demand. In the seventh year of slavery they were given the option to leave or continue as a slave for life in their current situation. Slavery as we have come to understand it - where people are forced to work against their will - is a different thing entirely. The bible speaks often about oppression of the poor. I think you are mixing the two up. c) The rest I'm not aware of examples where the rest are condoned in the bible, though I suspect the "mutilation of children" is a reference to circumcision. That was a sign of the promised children of Abraham. The funny thing here is that God ordained it to be done on the eigth day (from memory) which just happens to coincide with a physiologically perfect time to do it (you'll have to look that one up). So the child was at least risk and the side effect was less chance for disease later in life. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ozvillafan Posted November 7, 2011 VT Supporter Share Posted November 7, 2011 Fwiw I don't call myself an atheist. Nor do I call myself an afairyist, an afatherchrismasist or an aleprechaunist for that matter. Can't sandbox you into a pre-defined role then. How convenient that you can do it to the rest of us. :winkold: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DiegoD Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 It is similar. Repeated indoctrinations through sermons? Check. Discouraged from questioning? Check. Publication of literature to fill up private coffers? Check. It's still a cult, the only difference is that it is a mainstream one and hence most of us euphemistically call it a "religion". Not that I (generally) have any problem with people believing in it mind, but it's still all quite silly to me. To the hardcore believer, all other religions are cults. I could take your arguments and apply them to atheism with the sole difference being it does not call itself a religion.... .... even though it's believers act very much like believers of any other religion. Thats why i picked atheism, a belief system that encourages me to be smug and play the intelligence card Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CrackpotForeigner Posted November 7, 2011 Share Posted November 7, 2011 Fwiw I don't call myself an atheist. Nor do I call myself an afairyist, an afatherchrismasist or an aleprechaunist for that matter. Can't sandbox you into a pre-defined role then. How convenient that you can do it to the rest of us. :winkold:I admit, if people are living their lives believing in things they've never seen, I do go a bit label-tastic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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