Houllier: Back him or sack him?

[heystally!]

Well well well, things are rather interesting at the moment. And by "interesting", I mean "**** awful".

And really, there is no doubt that Houllier is at the centre of these problems. People can look at Martin O'Neill's squad and suggest it wasn't strong enough, but there was not this much resentment when we finished 6th three seasons in a row.

The team we have is good enough to be finishing at least mid-table. Under Martin O'Neill, a team with Friedel, Young, Dunne, Collins, Warnock, Young, Petrov, Reo-Coker, Downing, Heskey, Agbonlahor would have filled us fans with confidence pre-game. Add to that the emergence of Albrighton and Bannan, our first XI looks pretty decent on paper. Right now it fills us with dread.

Sunderland was a prime example. Just days after a good showing against Chelsea, both in performance and result, suddenly everything is back to the shower of shit we've witnessed for the last month and a half.

Our attacking options were totally mixed up. Agbonlahor on the left was non-existant, Downing was repeatedly having to cut inside to feel comfortable crossing. Ashley Young was having to come deeper and deeper, and then wider and wider just to get involved in the game.

Then when we were chasing a goal, we had Ashley Young and Stewart Downing in defence, and Richard Dunne and James Collins up front. I have no problem putting a big man up front to win some headers, but two? And to leave two of our most creative players back was pathetic! We needed those two trying to latch onto headers from Dunne.

And I think the most telling thing about Houllier that night was the fact that Barry Bannan was not starting. Sure he's inexperienced, but he came off the bench and in a single minute showed more creativity than any player on the pitch. He must be showing similar class in training, yet when we have no creativity on the pitch it takes too too long to bring on a player who could make things happen for us.

Aston Villa was limited under Martin O'Neill, there is no denying that. If the season was August to December, he would be world class. Unfortunately he was clueless in managing an entire playing squad and using them effectively. He set up a Plan A, and his Plan B was simply Plan A recycled. He bought some average players, on large wages, and never played them. It was the right time to leave.

And now we've put in place a man who is even more tactically inept than O'Neill, a man who has managed to suck all of the passion and determination out of a squad who last year would have given everything to get the smallest of victories, a man who will get this club relegated if something doesn't change. And for me, that change has to be the manager himself.

But I think we all need to be realistic and face the truth, and the truth isn't pretty. Gerard Houiller will not be sacked in January, or February, or even before the end of the season. In fact, we will only see the back of Houllier this year if (or maybe when) we're in the Championship.

And the reason is because our board, for whatever good they have done in their first four seasons at our club, are too idealistic for their own goods. O'Neill was a great manager for them, in the model of the great Brian Clough, running the team in the "perfect way". And after him, they wanted a man with a similar footballing ethos. And I don't doubt that Houllier has that.

But unfortunately, more important than a club's philosophy regarding the way it is run and managed, is having a manager with footballing knowledge. Houllier is past it, and has been since leaving Liverpool. Since taking over at Lyon and bringing in his own players, the legacy he left has seen Lyon no longer the dominating French side.

He doesn't have the energy to be a top manager in a league like the Premier League. And right now we've just got to suffer this situation. And suffer we will.

[sellyoakvilla]

The thing is, if the pro Houlier posters (or trolls, as I feel they could generally be called) could stop saying "he needs more time" or "He needs his own squad", or making excuses for our conpetitive sixth placed finishes, and simply point to one thing he has got right so far, then I would at least see a glimmer of hope.

All I see is a man who has been out of English football too long, too inflexible with his old ideas, unwilling to acknowledge they might be wrong, and too arrogant to do anything about them. His leadership skills are nil, his approach out of date, and even if his ideas contained any merit, his woeful inability to articulate to the players what he wants, and the lack of consideration that doing things entirely his way with these players may not be what they are good at, concerns me deeply. He simply cannot get the players playing to their strengths, in the way he wants.

Now, all I know is if my team leader gets another job, and the replacement comes in, upsets everyone, and the work stats/results fall off the side of the graph, the management don't expect "everyone to be sacked" so the team leader can show what he's really about. They say "don't let the door hit you on the arse - your fired".

Whats so hard to understand trolls? At the moment, you appear like Captain Smith of the Titanic, believing theres no need to slow down in the ice field as you are in an unsinkable ship.

Don't think it's fair to call people who are 'defending' Houllier as trolls. I wouldn't say I'm defending him as such as the Sunderland game pissed me off no end - but it's bleeding obvious the club have said he will be here until the end, bar any mass destruction of club, and I believe that is the right decision. No manager could come in now and change this, IMO of course, and it would not do the players any good to have a fourth manager in five months. No use moaning at him now really.

[fran_villa]

The thing is, if the pro Houlier posters (or trolls, as I feel they could generally be called) could stop saying "he needs more time" or "He needs his own squad", or making excuses for our conpetitive sixth placed finishes, and simply point to one thing he has got right so far, then I would at least see a glimmer of hope.

All I see is a man who has been out of English football too long, too inflexible with his old ideas, unwilling to acknowledge they might be wrong, and too arrogant to do anything about them. His leadership skills are nil, his approach out of date, and even if his ideas contained any merit, his woeful inability to articulate to the players what he wants, and the lack of consideration that doing things entirely his way with these players may not be what they are good at, concerns me deeply. He simply cannot get the players playing to their strengths, in the way he wants.

Now, all I know is if my team leader gets another job, and the replacement comes in, upsets everyone, and the work stats/results fall off the side of the graph, the management don't expect "everyone to be sacked" so the team leader can show what he's really about. They say "don't let the door hit you on the arse - your fired".

Whats so hard to understand trolls? At the moment, you appear like Captain Smith of the Titanic, believing theres no need to slow down in the ice field as you are in an unsinkable ship.

Spot on and well said.

[steaknchips]

Now, all I know is if my team leader gets another job, and the replacement comes in, upsets everyone, and the work stats/results fall off the side of the graph, the management don't expect "everyone to be sacked" so the team leader can show what he's really about. They say "don't let the door hit you on the arse - your fired".

You have very little experiance of life at the top if you think thats all there is to it.

Unfortunately every manager will have their own style..Now unless Lerner is going to enrole every managerial post into the school of MON,change is going to happen..Fergy will have his own style,Mourinho has his own style..

Now like ive stated before,once you get favourtism in the workforce under one regime..Its very hard for a new regime to take control, as the workforce will be very protected of their favoured status which the earnt under the old boss..And will most probrably be reluctant to change..In some cases even trying to sabotage the company in protest of the old boss having departed!

[fran_villa]

Now, all I know is if my team leader gets another job, and the replacement comes in, upsets everyone, and the work stats/results fall off the side of the graph, the management don't expect "everyone to be sacked" so the team leader can show what he's really about. They say "don't let the door hit you on the arse - your fired".

You have very little experiance of life at the top if you think thats all there is to it.

Unfortunately every manager will have their own style..Now unless Lerner is going to enrole every managerial post into the school of MON,change is going to happen..Fergy will have his own style,Mourinho has his own style..

Now like ive stated before,once you get favourtism in the workforce under one regime..Its very hard for a new regime to take control, as the workforce will be very protected of their favoured status which the earnt under the old boss..And will most probrably be reluctant to change..In some cases even trying to sabotage the company in protest of the old boss having departed!

Do you think it was a good idea to come in and change everything so quick??, imo GH has made a massive cock up by doing so. the only thing he's managed to do so far is shatter the confidance of this team.

[steaknchips]

Now, all I know is if my team leader gets another job, and the replacement comes in, upsets everyone, and the work stats/results fall off the side of the graph, the management don't expect "everyone to be sacked" so the team leader can show what he's really about. They say "don't let the door hit you on the arse - your fired".

You have very little experiance of life at the top if you think thats all there is to it.

Unfortunately every manager will have their own style..Now unless Lerner is going to enrole every managerial post into the school of MON,change is going to happen..Fergy will have his own style,Mourinho has his own style..

Now like ive stated before,once you get favourtism in the workforce under one regime..Its very hard for a new regime to take control, as the workforce will be very protected of their favoured status which the earnt under the old boss..And will most probrably be reluctant to change..In some cases even trying to sabotage the company in protest of the old boss having departed!

Do you think it was a good idea to come in and change everything so quick??, imo GH has made a massive cock up by doing so. the only thing he's managed to do so far is shatter the confidance of this team.

Like I said...He is who is and has the style that he has..You are who you are....And unless Lerner is going to enrole every managerial appointment into the school of MON you cant change who you are.

Gerard Houllier probrably aint gotta clue how MON goes about his work...The same as MON wont understand how Houllier works....They are 2 differant people.

I seen these problems coming because MON never ran a fair ship..

[John_Lerwill]

Summary of my view

1. MON got team of overpaid prima donna players playing well by massaging their ego's, whilst ignoring the fantastic kids and sticking to his favourites

2. MON left at the time that damaged us the most, because he was told he couldnt sign a player no one wanted - McGeady!

3. Houllier came in with no option to buy any of his own style players

4. Houllier has suffered a 'crazy set of injuries than no team could cope with

5. Houllier wants to change us from hoof, counter attaching MON team into passing attacking 'top four' side, without the overpaid ego's

6. The Club will buy in January IF the right players come along, but will loan players that haven't got the ego's to supplement the great non ego players that are left and the fantastic youth players (that have been developed post MON), in readiness for a COMPLETE overhaul in the summer where we will see a completely new type of player signed to really turn us into a successful club.

In my eyes Houllier has made two major mistakes -

1. Alienating fans over the Liverpool comments

2. Trying to change things too quickly - upsetting the ego's straight from the start so that the injuries decimated a team that was allready divided, as MON's ego had the hump at his change in style.

These errors have turned a large percentage of the fan base against him, and yes the position in the league is precarious. Rest assured no one wants Villa to go down, especially me, but screaming blue murder at the players and manager is not going to achieve anything positive. Only positive attitudes and support is going to get us back where we belong.

I like this post. Spot on really. Houllier has not been without fault, but his faults have been over-stated by others.

As far as MON is concerned, in retrospect (I wasn't sure at the time), the selling of players such as Cahill and even Ridgewell and Gardner was a bad ploy. Cahill was certainly worth giving a chance to my mind and later we had to buy Dunne and Collins to get out of the c-b problem.

[beasley14]

Gabby hasn't always played games when fit. You could say Albrighton kept him out of the team.

[briny_ear]

I still think many people are missing the point.

This is a thread about Houllier, because he is now our manager and he has taken the club into the bottom 3.

There is NO POINT in constantly talking about MON in this thread because he isn't here, can't influence things, and is completely irrelevant to the current situation.

It is Houllier who is responsible for the club's performance now, and he is sending teams out apparently ill-prepared to compete with other premier league sides, with little idea of the tactics they are supposed to employ, with players playing in the wrong positions, and with the defence falling to pieces more often than not.

While it may be comforting to blame all this on someone who is no longer with us, that is not going to stop our poor results under the current manager. No doubt if we get relegated, there will be posters on here blaming it all on MON but we if we are relegated it will in fact be because our current manager isn't good enough and no-one did anything about it.

[John_Lerwill]

I don't see how MON can be excluded ... all the experienced players (apart from Gabby) are his signings and their attitude following MON's reign has been a main difficulty Houllier has had to face. Injuries being the other.

There is a clan in the Villa team that seems very much against the real world that Houllier is trying to implement.

That issue probably can only be got over by having those players replaced a.s.a.p.

[steaknchips]

I still think many people are missing the point.

This is a thread about Houllier, because he is now our manager and he has taken the club into the bottom 3.

There is NO POINT in constantly talking about MON in this thread because he isn't here, can't influence things, and is completely irrelevant to the current situation.

It is Houllier who is responsible for the club's performance now, and he is sending teams out apparently ill-prepared to compete with other premier league sides, with little idea of the tactics they are supposed to employ, with players playing in the wrong positions, and with the defence falling to pieces more often than not.

While it may be comforting to blame all this on someone who is no longer with us, that is not going to stop our poor results under the current manager. No doubt if we get relegated, there will be posters on here blaming it all on MON but we if we are relegated it will in fact be because our current manager isn't good enough and no-one did anything about it.

I totally agree with you,if we go down I will blame Houllier and the Board...Not MON..

This window is of very importance to Houllier...Its his chance to take a list to Lerner and the board of players he wants out and not in his plans.And a realistic list of players he wants in and that he feels he can get in to take the club forward...

[John_Lerwill]

You're both missing the point ...

We're still suffering from the decisions that MON made - that has hung over.

Houllier is only responsible from this point on now that he has the chance to change things, limited though the January window is.

[sellyoakvilla]

I don't think anyone is completely blaming MON because that would be incredibly one eyed and would show their hate towards MON rather than their support of Houllier. But what is obvious is his departure five days before the start of the season did not help one bit. We really needed this summer to kick on and add about two or three more quality players to the side as I feel we were almost there, but he piss arsed about over Summer and left us in the lurch. No longer going to speculate as to whether we would be in this position if we were still under his management as none of us will ever know but all I care about at the minute is sorting this mess out. We are Aston Villa Football Club, we do not deserve to be nor should we be where we are now. Whether that's with or without Houllier is down to the board but I trust their decision whatever happens.

[briny_ear]

I don't see how MON can be excluded ... all the experienced players (apart from Gabby) are his signings and their attitude following MON's reign has been a main difficulty Houllier has had to face. Injuries being the other.

There is a clan in the Villa team that seems very much against the real world that Houllier is trying to implement.

That issue probably can only be got over by having those players replaced a.s.a.p.

Because the issue isn't trying to find the perfect and most balanced allocation of blame. It is about taking action now to stop our slide towards relegation. The idea that this will be achieved by sacking half the squad and getting in mass replacements is unrealistic because (a) there would be a massively high risk that the new squad wouldn't settle down in time and ( it's pretty clear Lerner ain't going to spend the money.

So we need a manager who can get the current, really quite decent, squad back to winning (or at least drawing) ways. Can Houllier do it? There isn't much evidence so far. I would prefer to see us with a manager better able to deal pragmatically with the squad and grind out some results.

[fran_villa]

this the first time i have seen fans blame a former manager for the current managers mess.

[John_Lerwill]

There are some players who clearly were so patronised by MON that they miss his presence.

THOSE players have to go whilst I assume others will modify (or have already modified) their stance.

[YLN]

At last a bit of lip service from Houllier. Thank **** for that.

.....No SkySports got it wrong. He's not talking about Villa at all, but himself.

Nice one Gerry

[limvillian]

You're both missing the point ...

We're still suffering from the decisions that MON made - that has hung over.

Houllier is only responsible from this point on now that he has the chance to change things, limited though the January window is.

Houllier is only responsible from this point on?? Come off it. You must be having a laugh.

[Super-Villan]

Even if MON was as spiteful as some posters seem to think, I bet in his wildest dreams he couldn't have imagined his departure would cause such chaos that we'd be doing this badly. It took a great effort to get us to fall this far, even from a slightly unstable position.

[John_Lerwill]

No. How can Houllier take responsibilty having come in at the point he did with virtually no options available to him (injuries) and players that had been spoilt by the previous regime?

His time starts ... now!