WC 2010: Group C Chat (England etc)

[TrentVilla]

Gerrard has been naff this season and very lucky to be in the squad, so there!

I agree, he is there on reputation rather than form.

[Chindie]

We don't play 442 imo. We effectively play 4231, we have 1 big front man (Heskey) and then let Gerrard Rooney and Lennon in last nights case do whatever the **** they like, while Lampard and Barry are expected to be more strict in their positioning. I agree with Trent that, in Lampards case in particular, that leaves him doing sod all because I don't think in the time he's been a mature successful player, he's ever played in the manner Capello wants him to.

And the fact that letting Rooney have that freedom and him last night doing absolutely nothing with it just damns him further. Can do whatever the **** he likes, and he undoubtedly has the talent to make the most of that freedom, and he does **** all.

Beyond the problem with Lampard, I don't think I can place too much blame at the feet of Capello - the failure of the team last night is down to the players and the players alone. It is unacceptable that a player like Rooney cannot control the ball, as he was failing to do so often last night. That was an incompetant display. Pressure hasn't caused that - these are players that are pressured constantly in their club careers requiring high performance week in week out, often in massive games, and they handle it, often with aplomb. It isn't especially the formation, it's the same one we've played with with success in the qualifying games. The loss of some players has affected it, undoubtedly, but that doesn't explain the limpness of this side at the moment either - losing Ferdinand doesn't make Rooney's touch vanish.

I'm utterly convinced there's a problem with the players. I don't think they are quite as good as many would think, not to say that they are bad, they obviously aren't, but they aren't quite all amazing. As a team they certainly aren't. Occasionally it clicks, more often than not it simply gets by on what talent there is in the side.

And that sneaking suspicion in me remains. I don't think they like Capello. It's the first tournament they've had with him and I suspect that now they are at the World Cup with him, they've realised that they don't like him, that theres a lot about him that they dislike, and thats come out in the performances that have happened.

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

I'm sorry but I don't agree.

Look at this, our 3 best players in terms of goals, assists and quality for club:

Rooney - Plays upfront on his own, as the main striker (HE EVEN SAYS HE WANTS TO PLAY HIS OWN!) - England, plays as number 10.

Gerrard - Plays off a striker, in the hole, where he can find dangerous positions. Playing left midfield for England. Restricts him.

Lampard - Plays a stricter role in central midfield.

I just don't get:

James

Johnson Terry Upson Cole

Barry

Lampard Gerrard

Lennon Rooney Cole.

Or Milner in for Lennon.

For **** sake, just leave Rooney out of the build up play, let him stay in the box and score goals. IT'S WHAT HE DOES. HE'S NOT A NUMBER 10!!!

[briny_ear]

Just been reminded of this on someone's blog:

Oh dear.

[PompeyVillan]

I think Rooney should be dropped for the game against Slovenia. He was woeful. Defoe looked twice as dangerous and he only played 20 minutes.

As for formation. I think it has to be EITHER Lampard and Gerrard.

And I bet Capello regrets not picking Ashley Young now. His makeshift left midfielders havn't worked.

[danceoftheshamen]

For me there are 2 main problems.

1. Heskey can't score

2. Rooney is very very overated & quite simply not on his game.

Result?! England can't score goals!

Teams know it & we are being found out. I mean we qualified largely WITHOUT Heskey so why oh why is he playing now?

My problem with Heskey is this...

Yes he is a good foil for his strike partner.

Yes he creates chances

Yes he is very experienced.

BUT!

He cannot score goals!!!

The problem with this is that it puts all the pressure on his strike partner to do the scoring. If that partner, last night of course being Rooney, is off his game it means our 1 scoring striker is out of sorts so we will struggle!!

Also one of Rooneys strengths is he too can spot a pass & create but as Heskey cannot put those chances away you effectively have 1 striker & a bloke who will create one or 2 chances for him!

Strikers both need to score goals surely to goodness?!

Then if one has an off day his partner will take up the mantle & vice versa.

As it was it was clear last night that Rooney was simply awful (As he was against the USA) & you simply knew Heskey would never score so that pressure then spread to the midfielders etc etc.. It has been happening at VP all season & even MON realised it eventually & had to drop Heskey.

Well that is how i see it at any rate.. Yes he's a good player but he is only effective if his strike partner is bang on his game as he simply cannot score goals. Did anyone else get deja vu with many VP performances last season? All graft & no teeth!

[TrentVilla]

Its not just the players though Chindie, it really isn't, playing Gerrard on the left is just a terrible terrible terrible tactic. It doesn't work, its never worked, it doesn't work when we have the ball and it certainly doesn't work when we don't. Gerrard was our best player in the first match was central and last night he was invisable.

Not only is he wasted on the left but he is a liability, he simply doesn't hold his position he constantly wonders in from the wing and occupies a central position. This means we struggle when we have the ball as we lack an option out wide and when we haven't got the ball it means we are left exposed or more to the point Cole is left exposed.

Ashley Cole is a superb player with fantastic attacking ability but we won't get the best out of this with Gerrard on the left because he can see Gerrard drift into the centre and so can't push forward.

This was a huge problem last night and Cole was left exposed time and time again, now granted in part that is Gerrard's fault for lacking the will power, discipline or whatever you want to call it to play the position given to him but its also Capello's fault for putting him there in the first place.

Its also Capello's fault for not putting this right despite the fact it was proving to be a problem, what was Capello's solution last night? Switch Gerrard to the right and Lennon to the left and all that achieved was that Gerrard drifted in from the right rather than the left and made Glen Johnson the one exposed.

A better team would have made us pay for this failing last night at times the space on our flanks was beyond belief and Capello is mainly to blame for that even though a number of the player under performed.

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

He plays Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney.

Your 3 key man, basically out of position and completly uncomfortable in the role they play!!

You can't do that.

[Chindie]

But as I said Trent, I don't really think Gerrard is being played on the wing, he's been asked to roughly play on the left but realistically, he's part of a fairly fluid 3 with Rooney and whoever is on the other wing. I think Capello wants him to do the hyperactive toddler routine that he does for Liverpool by giving him the reign to come off the wing and mix it up with Rooney.

I'm not sure thats that bad of a decision, and it did work in qualification. It just seems to me now that, for whatever reason, the performance has gone through the floor, and I don't think thats down to formations or tactics particularly. Unless you would argue that its only good when it works and when it isn't it's a bad decision, if you get my meaning.

Capello isn't without criticism of course, I wasn't that impressed with his squad (but then we could have guessed an awful lot of it a year ago). I think the recent performances problems lay far more at the feet of the players, the only thing thats changed since qualification is the loss of a couple of players, the fact we're at a tournament and the players seemingly losing any sense of ability.

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

But as I said Trent, I don't really think Gerrard is being played on the wing, he's been asked to roughly play on the left but realistically, he's part of a fairly fluid 3 with Rooney and whoever is on the other wing. I think Capello wants him to do the hyperactive toddler routine that he does for Liverpool by giving him the reign to come off the wing and mix it up with Rooney.

I'm not sure thats that bad of a decision, and it did work in qualification. It just seems to me now that, for whatever reason, the performance has gone through the floor, and I don't think thats down to formations or tactics particularly. Unless you would argue that its only good when it works and when it isn't it's a bad decision, if you get my meaning.

Capello isn't without criticism of course, I wasn't that impressed with his squad (but then we could have guessed an awful lot of it a year ago). I think the recent performances problems lay far more at the feet of the players, the only thing thats changed since qualification is the loss of a couple of players, the fact we're at a tournament and the players seemingly losing any sense of ability.

He should surely though play to the strengths of the players if they are the most important?

Rooney plays furtherst man forward and as a lone striker for Man United. It's what he prefers and personally why is he so fustrated it seems, because he doesn't want to be dropping deep for the ball, he wants to be scoring goals.

Gerrard is able to float but he wants to be direct through the middle when we get it. Defensively he is out on the left which means when we win it, he has to drive centrally if he's to be in a dangerous position instead of simply just going forward if he's played centrally.

He's leaving Joe Cole out who is arguably our most creative midfielder.

Lampard is restricted in his position. Then you think why and it's basically to fit:

Heskey/Defoe/Crouch in. So he's losing the best abilities of these players just to fit one of those players in?

[Chindie]

Rooney scores more goals with Heskey than he does with anyone else though? He might want to be up top on his tod but he achieves more with England when he's not.

Capello has played more or less the same formation with every team he's managed as far as I'm aware, 4231, and you could argue he's shoehorned this side into a variation of that, but it worked in qualification spectacularly.

And now it's not for some reason.

My thinking, and I'm pretty convinced of this, is you could set up this side exactly as they would like it, Rooney up top on his tod, Gerrard in behind him, etc etc, and we'd still not perform imo, because it's not formations that is the problem to my mind, it's something else.

[TrentVilla]

I think its a terrible tactic Chindie, it simply doesn't work and it leaves us exposed time and time again. Capello puts him out there because he can't figure out how else to accomodate him and Lampard in his favoured rigid 442, its no better than McLaren, picking the best players then trying to force them into a formation. It didn't work for McLaren, we got by with it in qualification but we didn't get away with it last night.

I don't think it really worked in qualification either to be honest but back then we had Rooney on top form, we had Beckham giving the side more balance and quality rather than an ineffective waste of a shirt that is Lennon. We had a settled back four on form led by a Terry who seems to have vanished with his friendship with Bridge. It was a different team then and we got away with it, we got by, I never ever think that Gerrard on the left and Lampard in the middle in a 442 has ever been a great way for us to line up.

Capello deserves critism, he deserves a lot. Some of his decisions have been really poor. I do agree though that the players deserve stick as well its not all about Capello, far from it. A number of the players performances last night were quite terrible, Rooney was shocking just shocking. Heskey was a waste of space, Lennon might as well not have been on the pitch and Lampard was out of his depth in that formation.

I said last night I thought it was the worst performance I've seen by an England side in a finals in 20 years, having thought about it I can't think of one as bad since the 1992 European Championships.

[leviramsey]

How shit have England been since Euro 96? We have been **** awful.

France 98 - Made it through the group in second place, lost in the first knockout round (Argentina on penalties)

So that's one of the top 9-16 countries in the world. (call it the geometric mean of 12)

Euro 2000 - Eliminated in the group phase, 3 points from 3 games.

One of the top 9-16 countries in Europe (go with the geometric mean, 12, plus however many non-European countries are in the best 12 countries in the world... so 14th, maybe 15th in the world)

Japan/Korea 2002 - Made it through the group in second place, beat Denmark in the first knockout round, lost to Brazil in the quarter finals.

One of the top 5-8 countries in the world. (6.32 geometric mean)

Euro 2004 - Made it through the group in second place, lost the first knockout game (Portugal on penalties)

One of the top 5-8 countries in Europe (6.32+Argentina+Brazil = 8.32)

Germany 2006 - Won our group (!), beat the mighty Equador 1-0 in the first knockout round. Lost to Portugal on penalties in the quarter finals.

One of the top 5-8 countries in the world (6.32)

Euro 2008 - Failed to qualify.

One of the top 17-50something countries in Europe (29.15 plus maybe 6? 35.15)

Average those and you get an average ranking of 13.77, which allowing for smaller countries that catch lightning in a bottle and move up is enough to say that England is about the tenth most successful side in the world over the past dozen years.

Going back through decades of international results, it's not difficult to do regression analysis based on population, GDP per capita, interest in football (based on attendance at league games, TV ratings etc.), player and country footballing experience, etc. to predict results, and that regression will show that England should expect to be the eighth or ninth best country in the world, regardless of generation or anything. England might be slightly underperforming, but not massively so.

[leviramsey]

[Alpaywasawesome]

I can't help but think having Agbonlahor upfront to lead the line would have been greatly beneficial to England.

He's not the best player, but he is very effective in stretching the play, and giving midfield players more room to exploit, by providing that threat in behind.

Right now, defences are coping with England quite adeptly because the furthest man forward, Heskey, isn't that fast at all, and even if he gets a chance he can't score 90% of the time.

[PompeyVillan]

I can't help but think having Agbonlahor upfront to lead the line would have been greatly beneficial to England.

He's not the best player, but he is very effective in stretching the play, and giving midfield players more room to exploit, by providing that threat in behind.

Right now, defences are coping with England quite adeptly because the furthest man forward, Heskey, isn't that fast at all, and even if he gets a chance he can't score 90% of the time.

Me and you both mate. Gabby would scare the shit out of International defenders. Let's be honest, they don't like the physicality of Heskey, that's why he's in the England team. Gabby would tear 'em a new a-hole. He's as strong as Heskey (not as good in the air though mind) and lightening quick.

Even as a second half substitute, I couldn't think of a better impact sub of his type.

[mozyFresh]

Did anyone else go to the match last night?

Just for record i want to say that i was very happy with England's performance and i wasn't booing.

I wasn't saying ''Boooooooooo!''

I was saying ''Rooooooooo! Roooooooooo!''

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

Rooney scores more goals with Heskey than he does with anyone else though? He might want to be up top on his tod but he achieves more with England when he's not.

Capello has played more or less the same formation with every team he's managed as far as I'm aware, 4231, and you could argue he's shoehorned this side into a variation of that, but it worked in qualification spectacularly.

And now it's not for some reason.

My thinking, and I'm pretty convinced of this, is you could set up this side exactly as they would like it, Rooney up top on his tod, Gerrard in behind him, etc etc, and we'd still not perform imo, because it's not formations that is the problem to my mind, it's something else.

Rooney scores more goals with Heskey than any other yes.....BUT THAT'S BECAUSE HE HASN'T PLAYED ON HIS OWN UPFRONT!

Yes he might play a 4-2-3-1 but with Gerrard on the left (WRONG) Rooney in behind (WRONG) Lampard holding (WRONG)

[Chindie]

Oh whatever.

[AVFC-Prideofbrum]

Only point I agree with is that the players aren't 100% there, however I do feel that players like Gerrard, Lampard, Rooney especially are just fustrated.

I think the problem is that Capello doesn't listen. Rooney has said various times even in England interviews he prefers playing upfront by himself and being in the box. It's also well known that he always Sir Alex the line up a day before the game, talks him through what he'd play etc...so he likes the fact even though Sir Alex would tell him to shut up, he wouldn't completly ignore him! It's also known that Rooney and Gerrard are good mates in the England camp. Guarentee they talk about playing alongside each other most days!! I think when they don't, they get fustrated, especially people like Rooney who will think he's right in what the team should be!

I don't think the strict policy Capello has and very autocratic approach is good when it comes down to a competition? I wonder what they do at the camps? because a team that does well does usually have alot of spirit, clearly enjoying being there which it doesn't seem like at the moment.

Okay these are all just opinions but I think some of them may be the cause of some of the problems with the players at the moment.