Do you believe in God ?

[kidlewis]

arrrrrrrrgh read my post bitches otherwise i'll post it again. surely you have an opinion on it, rather than going hammer and nail about each other. Perhaps my post didn't make any sense at all.... but I understood it. hmmmmmmmmmm.

[Jondaken]

I think this thread has led me to feel if people want to believe, then that is fine.

I have to say I am not religious in any way, but take a lot out of reading sections of the bible, particularly the parables (good samartan, sower etc). They are stories Jesus told as an almost a philosophical outlook on how one should look at each other and make us think about our moral standing. That is what I take from that. At the same time, they didn't happen, they were parables. I am sure they have occured throughout time in one form or another though, as all they were, were stories. Like Goldie locks and the three bears.

For people to say the bible is full of rubbish, is a pretty rubbish point, because at worst (for the atheists), it's a book with some very good stories in it. Just because I am an atheist/agnostic (I think to be honest I am inbetween those two stances because my stances swey as I think about the question more and more). I base my opinion on myself, debates like this, and listening to both sides battle it out.

What I really don't agree with is how hardcore atheists and very religious people think they are "the only ones who are correct", which is quite frankly bullshit. "believe in our god or go to hell", statements like that is exactly what will send you to hell!!!

"love thy neighbour" is one of the most quoted phrases in the bible, it doesn't say "love thy neighbour unless he is a jew, then send him to auchwitz", just as the same it says "love thy neighbour, but if he doesn't believe in allah, slam a 757 into a skyscraper". You cannot pick and choose what parts of your religion you stand up for and others you do not. You either love thy neighbour, or not, there are no BUTS when it comes to that statement.

One example is why catholics feel they can be a catholic, and be gay. I really cannot see how you can be both. Either become gay and denounce your religion, or don't be gay, you cannot change religious laws as time goes on. It's not like you can edit the 10 commandmants to fit into the modern world.

On another stance, I am not religious, but love the buildings and churches that have been created as a result of people faith and desire to worship their god. I find some of them truly amazing and one of the many aspects of religious culture I really do like.

I think from now on if I ever get asked "do you believe in the bible/god?" I will say "no, but it's one hell of a read". Whether it's true or not, you cannot deny that it would win the brooker prize hands down if someone wrote that today.

I think for atheists to blast all religion then they cannot be expected to apreciate any products of it. Have you ever been to the Vatican? bloody awesome place In London Saint Pauls cathedral is such an awesome building, the skyline is almost built around it. Hymns as well. "I vow to thee my country" should be our national anthem IMO, I often enjoyed belting out hymns at school assembly, not because I believed in God, but because I liked to sing the odd decent hymn. I have to admit some of them are utter shite. Much like moderm music is today.

You cannot deny religion has has a positive impact on our lives, but ultimately the focus is on the bad things it has caused. And some of them have been bloody awful. Each religion has positives and negatives and I don't think even religious people can stand up and say their religion is perfect. If it was then why did Jesus have to endure such agony? why have religious people been persecuted and been the persecuter?

I am fortunate enough to be a bit more open about my personal opinion, just because I am atheist now doesn't mean I will change my stance on how I feel. I used to say I was agnostic until about 7 years ago when I had that massive debate with an irish priest in London. His stance was so anti anyone else other than his religion, I actively became atheist, because he pushed me away with his hardcore stance on how I was going to hell for not believing in "his" lord.

Now I feel a bit more agnostic in my stance, which perhaps is the best way to be. You are independent of both side of the argument, a bit like someone watching a tennis match level with the net. You watch the ball go back and forth, some great shots made, but ultimately the time will come when you will know who you want to win. Then your decision is made. I am not sure I will get to the conclusion whether I will believe there is a God, or believe there is not a God, but can still debate on what I think religious content means, and why I choose to think of it like that.

Out of all the opinions I have on this subject I do feel very strongly that you shouldn't be able to preach in public. I think regardless of what the content of the preaching is about, you are forcing your relgion and opinions on people whether they want to hear it or not (unless you are preaching in a town where everyone is deaf). In the same way I don't like people handing me leaflets about some club on broad street I should "check out" becuase it's "wicked", don't tell me to "believe" in "your god" so I can "be saved".

If the lord does exist, you don't need to market his will to people, because you have to truly believe they have "their own free will" and do not need you or anyone else to "influence" their free will, which God suposidly gave them. If anything, you are more likely to "undo" gods work than obtain new followers. People will find out themselves if they want to believe.

Read it all

If I believe the Bible to be 100% truth, which I do, then yes, it would only make sense that I believe if you do not get saved from your sins, then yes, you will go to Hell, then to the fiery pit for eternity. Yes that sounds pretty harsh (to say the least) but if I did not believe that then I would not be a Christian. It's not Gods choice that you would go there, he wants everyone to come to him.

This however, does not make me any better a person than you. I am after all, as much of a "bad" person as the next guy. Everyone sins. Even the Pope (who by the way, personally I think is a big farce, hes not even in the Bible for starters...)

Almost all my pals believe there is no God. I don't grudge them for it, just hope that one day I can be good enough of a witness to them.

And your point on people publicly preaching. I'm on two mind of this. On one hand, what good does it do anymore? In the Bible, when Jesus and the apostles preached in front of crowds, they were not just random crowds on a street, he did it in synagogues, he did it in places where people came to listen to HIM, he did not go out and make them listen to him. On the other hand, I know of people that were saved though some guy that walked up to them on the street. These preachers are not doing it out of personal gain, they are doing it out of love for the people around them and wanting to share eternal life with them.

My own form of "preaching" is they way I live and the acts I do, and if someone shows an interest in my beliefs then, and only then will I sit and throw some things down their throat.

[dundeevilla]

Even the Pope (who by the way, personally I think is a big farce.

At last, something we agree on! :angel:

[LondonLax]

How can you take something, written 65-100 years AFTER Jesus died, as "gospel"?

You mean 65-100 years after he was born right? So about 30 to 70 years after he died? Give or take.

[JulieB]

What is interesting about Moses and the Ten Plagues is that each and everyone of those blights challenged an Egyptian deity and their beliefs. They worshipped Frogs, the river which turned to blood...it all directly challenged their beliefs and way of life.Not forgetting Egypt and arrogant Pharoah... was the ruler of the the then known world.

Can you imagine the scene of Moses who had left the house of Pharoah some40 years previously and had become a lowly shepherd, an occupation the Egyptians despised.... challenging the greatest ruler on the planet.Pharoah's words to Moses..."(Exodus 5:2) . . .“Who is Jehovah, so that I should obey his voice to send Israel away? I do not know Jehovah at all and, what is more, I am NOT going to send Israel away.”

Yes both rods turned to snakes that of Moses and of the magic practicing priests...( but even Jesus said that the demons could perform powerful things) Surely the fact that Moses reported this shows the honesty of the account?

It ended with the death of the first born, which was a practice hineos to the God of the Jew And God used this as a last resort only after repeating his appeal to Pharoah to let his people leave Egypt.Pagan nations had as a matter of course sacrificed their firstborn sons and daughters to their deities.I always think this was God's way of making them see who really was the true God and an active demonstration of his power.

Many many Egyptians left with the Israelites the night of that Passover and headed for the wilderness to follow Moses, according to the book of Exodus

Of course yet again you could say this is all a load of bunkem, however Egypt and Pharaoh's did exist and there is evidence that the Israelites resided in the land of Goshen for a time.

[kidlewis]

I think this thread has led me to feel if people want to believe, then that is fine.

I have to say I am not religious in any way, but take a lot out of reading sections of the bible, particularly the parables (good samartan, sower etc). They are stories Jesus told as an almost a philosophical outlook on how one should look at each other and make us think about our moral standing. That is what I take from that. At the same time, they didn't happen, they were parables. I am sure they have occured throughout time in one form or another though, as all they were, were stories. Like Goldie locks and the three bears.

For people to say the bible is full of rubbish, is a pretty rubbish point, because at worst (for the atheists), it's a book with some very good stories in it. Just because I am an atheist/agnostic (I think to be honest I am inbetween those two stances because my stances swey as I think about the question more and more). I base my opinion on myself, debates like this, and listening to both sides battle it out.

What I really don't agree with is how hardcore atheists and very religious people think they are "the only ones who are correct", which is quite frankly bullshit. "believe in our god or go to hell", statements like that is exactly what will send you to hell!!!

"love thy neighbour" is one of the most quoted phrases in the bible, it doesn't say "love thy neighbour unless he is a jew, then send him to auchwitz", just as the same it says "love thy neighbour, but if he doesn't believe in allah, slam a 757 into a skyscraper". You cannot pick and choose what parts of your religion you stand up for and others you do not. You either love thy neighbour, or not, there are no BUTS when it comes to that statement.

One example is why catholics feel they can be a catholic, and be gay. I really cannot see how you can be both. Either become gay and denounce your religion, or don't be gay, you cannot change religious laws as time goes on. It's not like you can edit the 10 commandmants to fit into the modern world.

On another stance, I am not religious, but love the buildings and churches that have been created as a result of people faith and desire to worship their god. I find some of them truly amazing and one of the many aspects of religious culture I really do like.

I think from now on if I ever get asked "do you believe in the bible/god?" I will say "no, but it's one hell of a read". Whether it's true or not, you cannot deny that it would win the brooker prize hands down if someone wrote that today.

I think for atheists to blast all religion then they cannot be expected to apreciate any products of it. Have you ever been to the Vatican? bloody awesome place In London Saint Pauls cathedral is such an awesome building, the skyline is almost built around it. Hymns as well. "I vow to thee my country" should be our national anthem IMO, I often enjoyed belting out hymns at school assembly, not because I believed in God, but because I liked to sing the odd decent hymn. I have to admit some of them are utter shite. Much like moderm music is today.

You cannot deny religion has has a positive impact on our lives, but ultimately the focus is on the bad things it has caused. And some of them have been bloody awful. Each religion has positives and negatives and I don't think even religious people can stand up and say their religion is perfect. If it was then why did Jesus have to endure such agony? why have religious people been persecuted and been the persecuter?

I am fortunate enough to be a bit more open about my personal opinion, just because I am atheist now doesn't mean I will change my stance on how I feel. I used to say I was agnostic until about 7 years ago when I had that massive debate with an irish priest in London. His stance was so anti anyone else other than his religion, I actively became atheist, because he pushed me away with his hardcore stance on how I was going to hell for not believing in "his" lord.

Now I feel a bit more agnostic in my stance, which perhaps is the best way to be. You are independent of both side of the argument, a bit like someone watching a tennis match level with the net. You watch the ball go back and forth, some great shots made, but ultimately the time will come when you will know who you want to win. Then your decision is made. I am not sure I will get to the conclusion whether I will believe there is a God, or believe there is not a God, but can still debate on what I think religious content means, and why I choose to think of it like that.

Out of all the opinions I have on this subject I do feel very strongly that you shouldn't be able to preach in public. I think regardless of what the content of the preaching is about, you are forcing your relgion and opinions on people whether they want to hear it or not (unless you are preaching in a town where everyone is deaf). In the same way I don't like people handing me leaflets about some club on broad street I should "check out" becuase it's "wicked", don't tell me to "believe" in "your god" so I can "be saved".

If the lord does exist, you don't need to market his will to people, because you have to truly believe they have "their own free will" and do not need you or anyone else to "influence" their free will, which God suposidly gave them. If anything, you are more likely to "undo" gods work than obtain new followers. People will find out themselves if they want to believe.

Read it all

If I believe the Bible to be 100% truth, which I do, then yes, it would only make sense that I believe if you do not get saved from your sins, then yes, you will go to Hell, then to the fiery pit for eternity. Yes that sounds pretty harsh (to say the least) but if I did not believe that then I would not be a Christian. It's not Gods choice that you would go there, he wants everyone to come to him.

This however, does not make me any better a person than you. I am after all, as much of a "bad" person as the next guy. Everyone sins. Even the Pope (who by the way, personally I think is a big farce, hes not even in the Bible for starters...)

Almost all my pals believe there is no God. I don't grudge them for it, just hope that one day I can be good enough of a witness to them.

And your point on people publicly preaching. I'm on two mind of this. On one hand, what good does it do anymore? In the Bible, when Jesus and the apostles preached in front of crowds, they were not just random crowds on a street, he did it in synagogues, he did it in places where people came to listen to HIM, he did not go out and make them listen to him. On the other hand, I know of people that were saved though some guy that walked up to them on the street. These preachers are not doing it out of personal gain, they are doing it out of love for the people around them and wanting to share eternal life with them.

My own form of "preaching" is they way I live and the acts I do, and if someone shows an interest in my beliefs then, and only then will I sit and throw some things down their throat.

I think the point on preaching is, like you said Jesus did it in Synagogues where people came to listen to him. These in the modern day I would consider places of worship. I think doing it in very public is wrong, and if you can preach in public and anywhere, why build churches? I thought religious buildings point were a religious sanctuary where you could be closer to god? so preaching in a town wouldn't be as powerful than doing it in a church or other place of worship anyway.

I think protesting is a slightly different thing, but ultimately if you want to protest then you are against something. I think protesting against the government is fine, but other things I am not so sure. The foxhunting thing was a bit of a farce IMO. They need to be controlled just like rabbits, and perhaps the pomposity of a foxhunt was a "needless" way of doing so, but to be fair it dies a lot quicker at the hands of a pack of hounds than a gun. Believe me, I have witness the latter and it's not nice.

Picking foxes off at night, from 250 yards away only using land rover headlights to spot them generally leads to anything but a headhot. But that's another topic altogether.

[dundeevilla]

Yes both rods turned to snakes that of Moses and of the magic practicing priests...( but even Jesus said that the demons could perform powerful things) Surely the fact that Moses reported this shows the honesty of the account?

:shock:

[kidlewis]

Yes both rods turned to snakes that of Moses and of the magic practicing priests...( but even Jesus said that the demons could perform powerful things) Surely the fact that Moses reported this shows the honesty of the account?

:shock:

but to be fair I thought I saw the wall moving after playing lots of guitar hero.

[LondonLax]

It ended with the death of the first born, which was a practice hineos to the God of the Jew And God used this as a last resort only after repeating his appeal to Pharoah to let his people leave Egypt.

The part I don't get is why the Egyptions were not gods people too.

God had not given them access to scriptures and spoken to them directly like he did to the Jews. Why should they be punished for not believing in him when they were not give the same opportunites to believe as gods chosen people were?

[JulieB]

The part I don't get is why the Egyptions were not gods people too.

God had not given them access to scriptures and spoken to them directly like he did to the Jews. Why should they be punished for not believing in him when they were not give the same opportunites to believe as gods chosen people were?

Actually the bit at the end says the opposite...according to Exodus...many many Egyptians left Egypt and became alien residents and became part of the nation of Israel. Under the Mosaic law those alien residents were to be treated kindly the same as any Israelite.

All God asked was that Pharaoh let the Israelites go...however they were slaves and the Egyptian's no doubt made good use of them ..using them to do all the tasks they didn't wish to carry out. It was Pharaoh who bought the plagues on his people by ignoring Moses's plea...according to Exodus

[kidlewis]

According to christians, how old is the earth and the universe?

[dundeevilla]

The part I don't get is why the Egyptions were not gods people too.

God had not given them access to scriptures and spoken to them directly like he did to the Jews. Why should they be punished for not believing in him when they were not give the same opportunites to believe as gods chosen people were?

Actually the bit at the end says the opposite...according to Exodus...many many Egyptians left Egypt and became alien residents and became part of the nation of Israel. Under the Mosaic law those alien residents were to be treated kindly the same as any Israelite.

All God asked was that Pharaoh let the Israelites go...however they were slaves and the Egyptian's no doubt made good use of them ..using them to do all the tasks they didn't wish to carry out. It was Pharaoh who bought the plagues on his people by ignoring Moses's plea...according to Exodus

Yep those Egyptian b@st*rds deserved some severe punishment. Good ol' God, in his infinite loving wisdom, showed them what for.

Its a real pity he didn't show up to smite Hitler and the Nazis in the same way. God's been a bit quiet recently when you think about it. A flurry of activity several millennia ago - and nothing since.

It's enough to make you think it's just made up.

[Jondaken]

According to christians, how old is the earth and the universe?

We haven't come to a consensus on that one Some would say millions of human years old, some would say as little as 6 thousand.

[Jondaken]

The part I don't get is why the Egyptions were not gods people too.

God had not given them access to scriptures and spoken to them directly like he did to the Jews. Why should they be punished for not believing in him when they were not give the same opportunites to believe as gods chosen people were?

Actually the bit at the end says the opposite...according to Exodus...many many Egyptians left Egypt and became alien residents and became part of the nation of Israel. Under the Mosaic law those alien residents were to be treated kindly the same as any Israelite.

All God asked was that Pharaoh let the Israelites go...however they were slaves and the Egyptian's no doubt made good use of them ..using them to do all the tasks they didn't wish to carry out. It was Pharaoh who bought the plagues on his people by ignoring Moses's plea...according to Exodus

Yep those Egyptian b@st*rds deserved some severe punishment. Good ol' God, in his infinite loving wisdom, showed them what for.

Its a real pity he didn't show up to smite Hitler and the Nazis in the same way. God's been a bit quiet recently when you think about it. A flurry of activity several millennia ago - and nothing since.

It's enough to make you think it's just made up.

Thats because things changed when Jesus came.

[dundeevilla]

According to christians, how old is the earth and the universe?

We haven't come to a consensus on that one Some would say millions of human years old, some would say as little as 6 thousand.

Yep, they can't even agree amongst themselves on the basics.

Surley god should have made this kind of stuff perfectly clear in the bible. Maybe he forgot.... :?

[LondonLax]

The part I don't get is why the Egyptions were not gods people too.

God had not given them access to scriptures and spoken to them directly like he did to the Jews. Why should they be punished for not believing in him when they were not give the same opportunites to believe as gods chosen people were?

Actually the bit at the end says the opposite...according to Exodus...many many Egyptians left Egypt and became alien residents and became part of the nation of Israel. Under the Mosaic law those alien residents were to be treated kindly the same as any Israelite.

All God asked was that Pharaoh let the Israelites go...however they were slaves and the Egyptian's no doubt made good use of them ..using them to do all the tasks they didn't wish to carry out. It was Pharaoh who bought the plagues on his people by ignoring Moses's plea...according to Exodus

Well my understanding was that god actually asked Moses to ask the egyptions to let them go. That is a bit different, having a slave leader ask to have slaves freed was probably not an unusual request of a Pharoah. I'm sure if god had asked the Pharoah more directly he my have had better results in convincing him and everyone would have lived happily ever after.

It's a bit unfair on the Egyptions though to lay waste to them for not believing in the Jewish god when they had no reason to believe in a Jewish god. There was no bible for them to learn about back then and God wasn't making himself available to anyone but the Jews.

[JulieB]

Dundee Villa you have missed the point

.... You stated that Bible was written by Bronze Age farmers... It clearly wasn't.

Moses was bought up as a son of Pharaoh and he wrote the first 5 books...

I've listed other Bible writers to demonstrate..

I notice no one commented on the correctness of the Bible stating that Belshazzar was the last King of Babylon when critics jested it was all hocum.

As for the Egyptians.... the reason the descendants of Abraham went to Egypt in the first place was due to the famine. Jacob and his sons escaped the famine and moved there... Joseph had by this time become a trusted member of the Egyptian hierarchy..

.in fact Pharaoh put him in charge of all his affairs.

It was only in later generations that this relationship deteriorated and the Egyptians treated them as slaves.

[JulieB]

According to christians, how old is the earth and the universe?

I think you'll have to ask other's that question.

If you are asking me then I would say. Billions, maybe trillions. The Bible gives no indication as to their age

only their origin.

[Brumerican]

Dundee Villa you have missed the point

.... You stated that Bible was written by Bronze Age farmers... It clearly wasn't.

Moses was bought up as a son of Pharaoh and he wrote the first 5 books...

I've listed other Bible writers to demonstrate..

I notice no one commented on the correctness of the Bible stating that Belshazzar was the last King of Babylon when critics jested it was all hocum.

As for the Egyptians.... the reason the descendants of Abraham went to Egypt in the first place was due to the famine. Jacob and his sons escaped the famine and moved there... Joseph had by this time become a trusted member of the Egyptian hierarchy..

.in fact Pharaoh put him in charge of all his affairs.

It was only in later generations that this relationship deteriorated and the Egyptians treated them as slaves.

How come the Egyptians, who documented nearly every detail about their culture, amazingly make no mention of the Israelites ever being in Egypt?

[dundeevilla]

Dundee Villa you have missed the point

.... You stated that Bible was written by Bronze Age farmers... It clearly wasn't.

Moses was bought up as a son of Pharaoh and he wrote the first 5 books...

I've listed other Bible writers to demonstrate..

I notice no one commented on the correctness of the Bible stating that Belshazzar was the last King of Babylon when critics jested it was all hocum.

As for the Egyptians.... the reason the descendants of Abraham went to Egypt in the first place was due to the famine. Jacob and his sons escaped the famine and moved there... Joseph had by this time become a trusted member of the Egyptian hierarchy..

.in fact Pharaoh put him in charge of all his affairs.

It was only in later generations that this relationship deteriorated and the Egyptians treated them as slaves.

Like I said I will take your word for it. As others have said in this thread, there is serious doubt over whether people like Moses even existed.You stated as fact a while back that rods turned into snakes, so excuse me if I'm a wee bit sceptical at what you're saying about Moses etc.

We can substitute 'Bronze age farmers' for 'Bronze Age people who had no real understanding about the world or the universe, so instead they invented stuff to explain their existence, which in their position was an understandable thing to do. However, there is no excuse for believing today what they believed back then.'