World of Warcraft

[Risso]

shaman:

this is probably only one duel where i think i will win more than lose

only chance to lose is lucky crits for him, unlucky noncrits for me and his elemental spec + natural switfness with chain lightning

That's where I'm coming from Si. Not slagging off warriors as a whole, but once we're hamstrung, we're ****, unless we get VERY lucky with shock crits.

[Risso]

oh and

shadow priest - no chance, i dont wanna write more, but N.O. C.H.A.N.C.E

I don't think any more needs to be said!

[Designer1]

Hamstring after intercept, what more do you need?! Tell me how a shammy is supposed to respond to that? Priests and Locks can fear you away to gain distance, mages can sheep you, what can we do? In battlegrounds I can kill warriors, but not one on one. I can self heal, but once hamstring has worn off, bang, you do exactly the same thing again!

So because we do ok against Shammies (And I'll admit I've never been against one) we should be nerfed even more and not get one of our main bugs fixed? Somewhat unfair dont you think?

As Nays always says, its a Rock/Scissors paper situation with most classes, but unfortunately we seem to be the class with the least amount of chances to win against most = unbalanced.

[Risso]

Is it a bug or is it "working as intended" It seems fair to me that people should have the chance to get away from a warrior's charge. It just makes sense. If you liken it to firing an arrow, then there's every chance the target will move after the arrow is fired. I don't know enough about the rest of playing a warrior to know what it's like, and obviously I can only respond as a shammy, but our way of slowing people down is diminishing returns, as are most other classes I believe, so why shouldn't a tank's be too?

Don't know about being blanced, I think the game is sort of "paper, scissors, stone" whereby each class should have equal classes they do well/badly against.

[Risso]

But let's face it, in the all out insanity that is Alterac Valley, most of this goes out the window anyway! I've killed/been killed by every class (except killing priests, obviously!) regardless. Most of the above only counts in duels, which is the shittest part of PvP anyway, I hate it.

[ED]

I think that warrior is just the same as me, shit at duels

Also, thanks alot Nayson for that Onyxia post. Most of those qs I've helped other people with / seen them do, so I'm gonna head to BRS and start tonight.

[Sie]

Oh for **** sake. This again?

By the way Sion, that list contradicts your original statement. You said Warriors are shit until they get epics and that list is refering to a Warrior with epics. Additionally, the part in bold about that Warrior fighting "cheesy builds" is bullshit.

For example, he's only highlighting a combat specced rogue in his argument...

Also don't lose perspective on the fact that list is simply the opinion of another player who will have his own tactics and not confirmation of anything. I've had my eyes opened a number of times in how to fight certain classes with different methods (exposing armour on a priest!, opening on a Mage with improved kick!). Try some new and unusual tactics yourself, you might be surprised (as will your opponent).

The nerfing is because Warriors at high level play had sure fire ways of killing stuff just from overpowering them with certain attack combos. The nerfs stopped these unfair tactics from being as effective but stubborn warriors refuse to expore new tactics. They just continue using the old ones, refusing to accept the fact they're not as effective and instead claim they are underpowered. Rogues did exactly the same thing when they were nerfed.

This is a problem with WoW in that players get so into their own class, they become entirely ignorant of the other 8, completely lose perspective on the whole picture and just start holding up the "my class is shit, fix it" card. Their arguments to back up their cases are alway, ALWAYS, incredibly selective of the facts; be it on purpose or simply due to class ignorance.

There are just too many factors in PvP to ever think a list of "How I get beat by [insert class]" will back up an argument.

Up until my most recent respec (Combat), I avoided Warriors like the plague as they could kick my arse. Now that I'm combat , I can stand toe to toe with them but it means I have a much harder job against other classes now. In summary, build is the hidden factor which most class imbalance arguments negate to mention and yet is one of the most important factors.

[Risso]

Like Sie says, there just too many variables that come into play. Surely the main one being player skill. If the kind folks at Blizzrd took pity on me and allowed me to have a 51/51/51 talent tree spec, I'd STILL lose to players 5 ranks below me, due to me having the eye/hand coordination of Joey Deacon. In fact there have been far less "nerf Shaman" posts omn discussion boards since I started playing. After people take turns kicking my sorry arse, they must come to the conclusion that shammies aren't overpowered at all!!

[The_Rev]

I love the forum whineposts. I really do. Most people who start them on the Blizz forums are usually shit players. Some classes have the upper hand over others. I do well against Mages and Paladins. I struggle like **** against Rogues, Hunters and Epic Warriors. I fancy my chances against Priests and Druids. Other Warlocks is down to the other player/build, and i dont really fight Shamen except for duels (where they usually pummel me!)

They always assume that other classes have all cooldowns, and ive never critted anywhere near 3500/3900 with a shadowbolt. If he says he has been hit with that, he is either full of shit, or very very very very unlucky. Since 1.9 removed negative resists, im lucky to get a 2000 crit in full damage gear, with curse of shadows (10% shadow buff) and succubus MD buff (another 10%) and in my damage gear, i can be killed easily. Oh, and my crit chance is 10%. And im designed to have a lot of downtime (wrong pet, mana inefficency, lack of shards, cooldowns etc etc)

Duels arent a measure of how good you are in PvP. Most fights are about getting the jump on your opponent. Warlocks can be great in duels, cos we can make sure that we have the right pet summoned, a healthstone not on cooldown, full mana, and no cooldowns on Deathcoil/Soulfire/Shadowburn/Fel Domination (great PvP talent, 15 minute cooldown). Its never like that in proper PvP. Certainly not in battlegrounds like AV, where a mana pool (or lack of) can **** cripple a caster.

If a warrior wants to beat a Warlock, intecept stun, fear the succubus with your shout, then hamstring, and pound the **** out of him. Hit Berzerker if you want to be immune to fear.

Cloth Armour doesnt last very long up close.

[Risso]

The most fun things in WoW, in strict order

1) Gank squads with your mates, and otherwise generally pissing about.

2) Instances, esp with at least one or two mates in group.

3) Battlegrounds

4) Group PvE quests

5) Solo quests

6) Helping noobs

7) Exploring for the sake of it

8) Duelling.

Most of the above arguments are to do with duelling, which to my mind, is the least rewarding and enjoyable thing on WoW. As long as your character allows you to have a good go at everything else, then why worry?! As the VT boys pound some L40 ally scum into the dust at the Crossroads, I’m not worrying about whether Shards should be stackable or Frost Shock is overpowered, I’m just enjoying the game! I’m sure people only worry about nerfs on forums when they can’t actually get to play the game!

[The_Rev]

oh and

shadow priest - no chance, i dont wanna write more, but N.O. C.H.A.N.C.E

I don't think any more needs to be said!

Shadowpriests are poofs. Just silence/spell lock the ****. :winkold:

[Risso]

Shadowpriests are poofs. Just silence/spell lock the ****. :winkold:

OK then, I will!

The one time I managed to beat a priest was when my Six Demon Bag sheeped one of them, bet he wasn't expecting that!

[The_Rev]

The most fun things in WoW, in strict order

1) Gank squads with your mates, and otherwise generally pissing about.

2) Instances, esp with at least one or two mates in group.

3) Battlegrounds

4) Group PvE quests

5) Solo quests

6) Helping noobs

7) Exploring for the sake of it

8) Duelling.

Most of the above arguments are to do with duelling, which to my mind, is the least rewarding and enjoyable thing on WoW. As long as your character allows you to have a good go at everything else, then why worry?! As the VT boys pound some L40 ally scum into the dust at the Crossroads, I’m not worrying about whether Shards should be stackable or Frost Shock is overpowered, I’m just enjoying the game! I’m sure people only worry about nerfs on forums when they can’t actually get to play the game!

Agreed.

And i read the Lock forums a lot. There are a lot of people whining about Death Coil at the moment. 95% of them are Rogues who dont have a free kill now Warlocks arent the only cloth wearing class without an insta cast escape spell anymore, and People on PvE servers.

People on PvE servers have no right whatsover to comment on class balance as far as im concerned. If their experience of one on one PvP extends to duels, then they know **** all. Duels arent an accurate repesentation of PvP in reality, they really arent. PvP is about how you react to being jumped. Or how you go on to dominate a fight you just started when you jumped someone else. Whining about other classes and assuming that they are going to hit with massive crits every time they fight you just isnt realistic.

The classes are different so they are forced to group. I dont think there are any massive imbalances in classes, but there are a couple of abilities that are. Beasital Wrath was the one that affected me the most. And that was imbalanced. The fact that it got nerfed within a couple of months of it being introduced prove as much. Ive not been hit with it anywhere near as much since it was nerfed in 1.9 (in 1.8 i was getting hit with it every time i saw a hunter. And when a Hunter 5/6 levels below you can press one button and his pet can solo you, there really is something wrong. Blizzard have manners to record who is beating who in fights, and what abilitues they are using to do it. If there are massive spikes in the data to show this is happening (ie, Rogues farming Warlocks before 1.8, or Beastial Wrath before 1.9 - then something will be done about it. Either a buff to the class that is getting ****, or a neft to the Note, im only commenting on Warlocks, cos thats the class i know best. Im sure that there are other ability imbalances out there, but as they dont affect me, i dont know)

There are always going to be ways to beat another class. A lot of people forget that they arent fighting AI, they are fighting other people. And other people can get lucky, and other people can be devious **** at times, and thing of some great tactics to win a fight. If this gets out of hand, the class vs class/build vs build stats that Blizzard obviously have access too will show that one class is hammering another far too often. The people who can see the big picture can see whats going on. Not some warrior who just got decked by a Priest in a duel.

[ED]

Sie can you link your rogue combat build please? Is it just pure DPS, with little to no subtlety? If so I'd like to try it...

[Designer1]

In AV/AB/WSG I have beaten every single class. That does not alter the fact that as a class one-on-one (against players with similar abilities) we have disadvantages. Thats my perspective on it. I would never ask for other classes to be nerfed (which seems to be the done thing) I simply think that people asking for us to be nerfed further dont realise how difficult we are to use in PvP effectively.

Is it a bug or is it "working as intended" It seems fair to me that people should have the chance to get away from a warrior's charge. It just makes sense. If you liken it to firing an arrow, then there's every chance the target will move after the arrow is fired. I don't know enough about the rest of playing a warrior to know what it's like, and obviously I can only respond as a shammy, but our way of slowing people down is diminishing returns, as are most other classes I believe, so why shouldn't a tank's be too?

The thing is Riss, If you were charging at someone and they had no idea you were there, would you miss them completely and shoot five yards further than you had anticipated? Unless you were pissed as a word removed you would charge right up to their face and start hacking away ala Mel Gibsons Scottish Historically Rubbish movie. Thats why its bugged, Warriors are supposed to be trained killing machines and missing their intended target just looks rubbish. :winkold:

[Designer1]

By the way Sion, that list contradicts your original statement. You said Warriors are shit until they get epics and that list is refering to a Warrior with epics. Additionally, the part in bold about that Warrior fighting "cheesy builds" is bullshit.

No, what I said is that the general concensus is that Warriors seem to on a level playing field once they have Epic gear (I would agree with this).

This guy had Epic gear and was still struggling against most classes, which just seems to point to the fact even with Epic gear there are still shortfallings amongst certain players.

I actually do ok in PvP, and once Epics are gained all round I reckon I will so lots of dmg, BUT and this is my original point re.Rissos post, to ask for one of our most effective moves (Hamstring) to have diminishing returns just because its used well against Shammies is wrong. Its like me asking for all sap/disorientate/gouge effects to be taken off Rogues as they **** me for 20-30 seconds, It bothers me while its happening BUT its part of the game and part of the Rogues armour.

I just want balance!

[Risso]

Here here.

There was I last night, doing a bit of Grinding up at Gallows Corner, near Hillsbrad to get the xp up a bit. Well, one of my chief reasons was that I'd just aquired 1h axe skill, having spent most the game with a 1h mace, and happened to buy a nice 1h axe in the auction house. So Ive taken on one of the Ogres up there, and getting the axe skill up from virtually nill, and missing with it most of the time, so I'm getting a bit of a beating every time, but its ok, I expect it. So Ive taken on this ogre, one on my level, and just as I'm about to kill him, theres like *boom* from behind, and I turn round and an ally warrior 1 level below me (35) has crept up on me, taken adviantage of my diminished state to sneak a quick kill. Now, I am no great shakes at pvp, but Ithought this was unfair. So I quickly finished the ogre, picked up the drop, laid a magma totem, and crucially stepped back. Ally follows, (they always forget about the totems!) so he's getting hit from behind by this.

Then Frooossst sshhooockkkk! - bang, enough to get a few yards from him. A quick glug of health potion, and fffrrrooossst sshhoocccckkkk again. And again...... and down he goes.

Now. Im feeling a bit good about this. I dont do fighting very well, and was surprised this guy took such a beating from me. Especially as I couldnt even find the time in the panic to change my weapon, so my axe swings were virtually useless.......

So, I find a quiet place and, still being in potion cooldown, decide to build mana/hp by sleeping for a few mins ro recharge more quickly. And lo, the warrior reappears, and wants some more. Bang, hits me whilst I'm down on the ground. So up. Magma totem, more fffrrrooosssstttt ssshhooockkkkk, and depite this guy having had the jump on me twice, goes down again, and loses to me twice. Me, the worst pvp'er in Deathwing! When he appeared the third time, I chased after him and boy did he run! Woo!

All this without even a decent weapon in my main hand........

Why are you spamming frost shock? It doesn’t do as much damage as earth shock, and is on diminishing returns. Ie once you’ve hit a PvP enemy once, the next time you use it, it does less damage. The slowing effect last 8 seconds I think, so use it once and then earth shock them, plus flame shock. Once FS has worn off, use a rank 1 FS to slow them again and go back to ES and Flame Shock. Flame shock is the most mana efficient shock by the way, as it hits them initially and then does DOT. What have you spent your talent points in by the way? It’s just I’ve respecced about 6 times so have tried all the major builds and some shit ones of my own devising! Might be able to pass on a bit of advice and save you money in the long term.

[Sie]

By the way Sion, that list contradicts your original statement. You said Warriors are shit until they get epics and that list is refering to a Warrior with epics. Additionally, the part in bold about that Warrior fighting "cheesy builds" is bullshit.

No, what I said is that the general concensus is that Warriors seem to on a level playing field once they have Epic gear (I would agree with this).

This guy had Epic gear and was still struggling against most classes, which just seems to point to the fact even with Epic gear there are still shortfallings amongst certain players.

I actually do ok in PvP, and once Epics are gained all round I reckon I will so lots of dmg, BUT and this is my original point re.Rissos post, to ask for one of our most effective moves (Hamstring) to have diminishing returns just because its used well against Shammies is wrong. Its like me asking for all sap/disorientate/gouge effects to be taken off Rogues as they **** me for 20-30 seconds, It bothers me while its happening BUT its part of the game and part of the Rogues armour.

I just want balance!

You said "We (warriors) are by far the WORST class for PvP until we get Epics in every slot" meaning you have no problem with Epic equiped Warrior play. You then produced a list from some random "PvP level 14" player documenting how Epic equipped Warriors don't cut it. As a result, exactly what you are getting at is kind of muddied.

That guy struggling against other classes doesn't point out any facts at all as the entire thing is based on circumstance. This is what we're trying to say but you've done a hop, skip and a jump over this.

In that Warrior duel list we have no indication of how good a player he is, what his build is, what tactics he is using. Nor do we have any info on how good the people he is fighting are, what their exact builds are, what tactics they are using.

Basically, he could be losing because he is shit...

Anyway, as for Hamstring. So long as the cooldown is longer than the effect, I don't think it needs diminishing returns. Rogues have diminishing returns but then we have a few more slowing/stunning based abilities so we can mix it up (they're on separate timers).

With this in mind, I would like to point out why that warrior had such a hard time against a combat rogue. Every other build for rogues is about nipping in, big burst damage, nipping out, locking up, in and out, in and out, shake it all about. These rogues hate hamstring and rend as its stops them doing this.

Combat rogues are totally dfifferent - we want to be toe to toe just like warrior. In your face with big swords, laughing at your hamstring because we're not going to be running away - you are! Vanish? Piss off...how dare you insult me! A combat rogue with AR, BF and a 5 point SnD all activated is a **** killing machine. The warrior becomes a cloth wearer. Stick an Evasion and expose armour on that and you can hit us with overpower all you like - I'll just disarm you with riposte and continue to beat the living shit out of you.

Now, a stunlock rogue can only dream of doing that. Once a stunlock rogue has done his combo and hit his burst damage, his dps drops to almost nothing. This is when poorly played rogue resorts to running about madly hitting backstab and/or the vanish key. Hamstring and rend and he is reduced to panic.

By the way Sion, do you mouse look when you fight?

[ED]

^^^Yes yes how do I get that!

[Juju]

Why are you spamming frost shock? It doesn’t do as much damage as earth shock, and is on diminishing returns. Ie once you’ve hit a PvP enemy once, the next time you use it, it does less damage. The slowing effect last 8 seconds I think, so use it once and then earth shock them, plus flame shock. Once FS has worn off, use a rank 1 FS to slow them again and go back to ES and Flame Shock. Flame shock is the most mana efficient shock by the way, as it hits them initially and then does DOT. What have you spent your talent points in by the way? It’s just I’ve respecced about 6 times so have tried all the major builds and some shit ones of my own devising! Might be able to pass on a bit of advice and save you money in the long term.

Interesting you say that, because to be honest at my level 37, the earth shock I have available is certainly less powerful than frost. The balance changes, I rememner at l 25 that earth shock was far more powerful than frost, but not presently. It depends on where your at up to 60 I guess. And I must be a clueless player, because I notice no diminishing returns on using fs. I frost, I retreat, I fs again, and retreat. Some beasts that are slow like basilisks in desolace or the ogres are just kited at distance, without ever getting close. Or like that l 35 warrior who despite jumping me twice yesterday, ended up with a good and proper twatting without even recourse to my low 1h axe skill.

But theres no thrill like being jumped, and still kicking their sorry ally arse!