Ratings & Reactions: Luton v Villa

[briny_ear]

21 minutes ago, TRO said:

Another good rendition.

We all was Jas.....everybody was happy with that first half.

I could wax lyrical, until midnight, about some of our play this season.....its been scintillating at times....but I am slow, to state the obvious, because it is repeatedly stated...where defending seems to be the necessary evil.

but some of our defending, does need attention, and that's where, I think the conversation should be open.

Its as if we have to state the obvious, in order to qualify ourselves to debate the defending, in fear of being ungrateful or unappreciative.

 

We do need some perspective here.

We have the 5th equal best defensive record in the premier league and the 3rd equal best attacking record (equal with Man C), so I guess we must be doing something right. 

You wouldn’t think so to read some of the posts on Villatalk.

The team who have the fourth best defensive record are Man U who have conceded 36 but have only scored 36. And we are actually equal 5th with Everton who have conceded 37 and scored just 29 - we have scored more than double that.

I know which club I would rather be following.

I think there is a puzzle about why we often seem to start the second half so slow but I wonder if this is actually part of a plan to slow the game down and try to get a stranglehold on events. Unfortunately we may not have players good enough to play that way, so maybe that is where things are going a bit wrong.

But to claim we have some sort of defensive crisis at Villa seems a bit OTT.

[TRO]

21 minutes ago, Teale's 'tache said:

Not sure I agree with this. Without Mings, we don't really have the tools to go and win that first ball regularly. We don't have that Laursen/Teale type whose main joy in life is heading the ball.

However, there's more than one way to defend a ball into the box, what we can and should be doing better is, competing/nudging/putting under pressure the player that is going to win that first ball and then making damn sure we are winning the second ball, we aren't doing either of those things well enough at the moment.

I have some sympathy with the set piece coach in that he's had a constantly revolving cast at the back to work with, we aren't the biggest team, and he's been missing his main weapon in Mings for the entire season, but we do have to find a way to be more switched on for these set pieces.

I totally agree....

I too am not aiming my angst at Austin......I am a tad uncomfortable, they we are short on the tools.

I am not, and never have intended to say, that we need a Centre Back, who can ONLY head the ball....but in my experience in football, its always been an attribute, that centre backs are expected to do, probably more so, than most other players in the team.

That incident that manifested itself after Awoniyi's header was not exactly encouraging, where our players were the wrong side of the forest scorer......this is basic stuff, here.

I am not ignoring, our injury predicament either....but I do think in certain positions, we are well covered, and other positions we are short.

[Pinebro]

5 minutes ago, TRO said:

I totally agree....

I too am not aiming my angst at Austin......I am a tad uncomfortable, they we are short on the tools.

I am not, and never have intended to say, that we need a Centre Back, who can ONLY head the ball....but in my experience in football, its always been an attribute, that centre backs are expected to do, probably more so, than most other players in the team.

That incident that manifested itself after Awoniyi's header was not exactly encouraging, where our players were the wrong side of the forest scorer......this is basic stuff, here.

I am not ignoring, our injury predicament either....but I do think in certain positions, we are well covered, and other positions we are short.

You're right, we don'¨t have that Van Dijk type of player.

But they are not easy to find.

Though Arsenal seem to get by just fine without a typical man mountain in defence

Edited March 3 by Pinebro

[markavfc40]

36 minutes ago, TRO said:

but realistically, do we have to score 4 to win a game away from home?.....I think that is an ambitious ask.

No we don't and the fact we have only conceded more than 2 goals away from home three times all season tells you that. 

36 minutes ago, TRO said:

We also need to remind ourselves, we are 4th and them 18th, before, we dismiss, our second half performance...games are 90 odd minutes.

That is true. If you have watched them then it is also true that they have given some very good sides, in fact sides better than us, just as tough a time at home this season (drew 1-1 with Liverpool, lost 2-3 to Arsenal (in last minute), lost 1-2 to Man City) and have also beaten Brighton 4-0 and Newcastle 1-0.

36 minutes ago, TRO said:

I must admit Mark...I am not a fan who thinks, we can keep attacking our way out of trouble

Why can't we? Emery has managed us for 52 league games during which time we have scored 99 goals so pretty much two goals a game. That has yielded 104 points (2 ppg). We are not talking about a few games here and thinking this can't be maintained and the bubble is going to burst. This is us now and what we do.

I wouldn't dispute in an ideal world I'd rather we scored at the rate we do and never conceded. Given the choice though would I rather win 2-0 or 4-2, 1-0 or 4-3, 2-0 or 5-3, 1-0 or 3-2? I'll take seeing more goals every day of the week whilst stating the obvious of preferring to win 3-0, 4-0, 5-0.

Edited March 3 by markavfc40

[TRO]

1 hour ago, briny_ear said:

We do need some perspective here.

We have the 5th equal best defensive record in the premier league and the 3rd equal best attacking record (equal with Man C), so I guess we must be doing something right. 

You wouldn’t think so to read some of the posts on Villatalk.

The team who have the fourth best defensive record are Man U who have conceded 36 but have only scored 36. And we are actually equal 5th with Everton who have conceded 37 and scored just 29 - we have scored more than double that.

I know which club I would rather be following.

I think there is a puzzle about why we often seem to start the second half so slow but I wonder if this is actually part of a plan to slow the game down and try to get a stranglehold on events. Unfortunately we may not have players good enough to play that way, so maybe that is where things are going a bit wrong.

But to claim we have some sort of defensive crisis at Villa seems a bit OTT.

I think crisis is too strong a word, IMO......Vulnerable is more apt, for me.

yes, we are in that little band of 4th 5th and 6th of goals against.....but in with the big boys ( top 3)for goals scored.

I would say, our defensive work outside of the area, is better than inside it...that's purely based on the "eye test"

We have kept 6 clean sheets all season, with possibly one of the best Goal Keepers around.....sure we have lost defenders to injury, but only one is dominant in the air, which set pieces seem to be our achilles.

We are doing something right, and its been rightly praised too.....

but, why is it ok to compare ourselves with the top 3 for goal scoring....where we are holding our own......but not to be compared with them when it comes to goals against, and all the mitigating views come out about WIP ( which is a fair claim by the way) but why does WIP not hold us back for Goals for.

we are 9 goals away from our 46 we conceded last season, finishing 7th, with 9 games to go ...with a running rate of 1.37 goals per game, multiplied by 9  equals 12 that would have us on 49 conceded.... 3 more than last season, where we finished 7th

Look, stats are one thing....we all watch the games, and some goals we concede are avoidable and they seem to repeat themselves in a similar mode.

 

Edited March 3 by TRO

[El Segundo]

I rated Emery as poor on this one, but poor compared to his usual high standards.  First because I think it's on him that, for the second game in a row whilst cruising to victory,  we switched off during first half added time and then came out half  asleep for the second.   It was obvious very soon after half time we needed to change things - Bailey and Tielemans had clearly clocked off at halftime, McGinn and Luiz had lost control of the midfield, and Watkins was getting no service.   Subs came too late after a lot of damage had been done.

Up to a couple of years ago I used to think Michael Oliver was one of the better refs.  He's been a joke the last couple of years.  I was raging at the TV at some of the soft fouls he was giving to Luton, every time they were touched they went to ground and he just blew like a Pavlovian dog.  In contrast he did little or nothing to protect Ollie who was being fouled in pretty much every challenge by Menge, and also waved away a couple of fairly blatant fouls on McGinn.  He just looked very biased to me yesterday.      

Fair play for digging out the win in the end but we should have won that by 3 or 4.

[TRO]

1 hour ago, Pinebro said:

You're right, we don'¨t have that Van Dijk type of player.

But they are not easy to find.

Though Arsenal seem to get by just fine without a typical man mountain in defence

are you having a laugh......Gabriel and Saliba are 2 of the best around.....adding they have Rice doing the holding, too

Mickey Van der Ven is no slouch....and Botman is pretty dominant too.

Look, I wouldn't swap Torres, for any of them.....but he is not the type I am referencing, its more Mings type.....and yes, I am hugely frustrated with his absence.

Edited March 3 by TRO

[TRO]

32 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

No we don't and the fact we have only conceded more than 2 goals away from home three times all season tells you that. 

That is true. If you have watched them then it is also true that they have given some very good sides, in fact sides better than us, just as tough a time at home this season (drew 1-1 with Liverpool, lost 2-3 to Arsenal (in last minute), lost 1-2 to Man City) and have also beaten Brighton 4-0 and Newcastle 1-0.

Why can't we? Emery has managed us for 52 league games during which time we have scored 99 goals so pretty much two goals a game. That has yielded 104 points (2 ppg). We are not talking about a few games here and thinking this can't be maintained and the bubble is going to burst. This is us now and what we do.

I wouldn't dispute in an ideal world I'd rather we scored at the rate we do and never conceded. Given the choice though would I rather win 2-0 or 4-2, 1-0 or 4-3, 2-0 or 5-3, 1-0 or 3-2? I'll take seeing more goals every day of the week whilst stating the obvious of preferring to win 3-0, 4-0, 5-0.

I love seeing goals.....just not in our net.

Maybe, I need to temper my ambitions, and accept that we need to be a few goals up, to expect to win.

I Understand that UE has a sustainable record and I am well aware that his more or less 60% win ratio is phenomenal with us....I also still maintain my love for wins, slightly before performances....but obviously both are ideal.

I think my frustration is borne out of the clumsiness in which we seem to concede and  how avoidable some seem......and I accept great goals against, with the respect they deserve.....so I hope I am not asking too much.

I still think clean sheets, represent a fair barometer of control in a game.....and I will continue to be impressed with them......but maybe I just have to accept, we will allow teams back in, a bit more than I would like.

UTV

[DJBOB]

13 minutes ago, El Segundo said:

I rated Emery as poor on this one, but poor compared to his usual high standards.  First because I think it's on him that, for the second game in a row whilst cruising to victory,  we switched off during first half added time and then came out half  asleep for the second.   It was obvious very soon after half time we needed to change things - Bailey and Tielemans had clearly clocked off at halftime, McGinn and Luiz had lost control of the midfield, and Watkins was getting no service.   Subs came too late after a lot of damage had been done.

Up to a couple of years ago I used to think Michael Oliver was one of the better refs.  He's been a joke the last couple of years.  I was raging at the TV at some of the soft fouls he was giving to Luton, every time they were touched they went to ground and he just blew like a Pavlovian dog.  In contrast he did little or nothing to protect Ollie who was being fouled in pretty much every challenge by Menge, and also waved away a couple of fairly blatant fouls on McGinn.  He just looked very biased to me yesterday.      

Fair play for digging out the win in the end but we should have won that by 3 or 4.

Unai has made some serious substitution decisions this season - often leaving them very late. Not sure why either. He seems very selective about his approach to substitutions this season whereas he was far quicker to make changes last year. 
 
Menge just crawling all over Watkins was ridiculous but the second we go shoulder to shoulder, it’s a foul. This is not dissimilar from other matches where opponents are allowed to crawl all over our attackers holding off defenders but the second we make a challenge, it’s an impediment. 

[DJBOB]

3 minutes ago, TRO said:

I love seeing goals.....just not in our net.

Maybe, I need to temper my ambitions, and accept that we need to be a few goals up, to expect to win.

I Understand that UE has a sustainable record and I am well aware that his more or less 60% win ratio is phenomenal with us....I also still maintain my love for wins, slightly before performances....but obviously both are ideal.

I think my frustration is borne out of the clumsiness in which we seem to concede and  how avoidable some seem......and I accept great goals against, with the respect they deserve.....so I hope I am not asking too much.

I still think clean sheets, represent a fair barometer of control in a game.....and I will continue to be impressed with them......but maybe I just have to accept, we will allow teams back in, a bit more than I would like.

UTV

All your points can be summarized into needing better defenders. 
 
There is no tactical or man management that can make Pau or Konsa into VVD or Ruben Dias or Saliba. 
 
They are a rare gem for a reason and we will need to scout very well to find that player without being beat to that player by all of the other clubs. 
 
We have a top striker, a top keeper, and a very good pairing at CB and at midfield. 
 
But will need to be elite at several positions to push on top 3. 
 
Let’s remember that this is the first time we could be in UCL in 40 years so this transformation is not going to be done in the next year or two even. 
 
5 years ago we were in the championship so we will have done exceptional to have reached 4th. 

Edited March 3 by DJBOB

[TRO]

1 minute ago, DJBOB said:

All your points can be summarized into needing better defenders. 
 
There is no tactical or man management that can make Pau or Konsa into VVD or Ruben Dias or Saliba. 
 
They are a rare gem for a reason.

Hahaha......you're probably right.

but I think Pau is great, at what he does.

I think Mings is proving this far in to the season, just what a big miss he is.....we can only cover his absence for so long.

Lenglet is ok on the floor, and I am not sure about Carlos, looks a bit slow to me.

They are all rare gems...Pau is too....but best teams find them.

I never heard of Mickey van der ven or Sven Botman...but they seem to have settled ok.

The players are out there, we have to find the right ones to do the jobs.

Its inevitable, in every position, the further we climb the greasy pole, they harder is gets to find players of commensurate quality.....that's why we have Monchi, and his army of analysts.

[Sulberto21]

The first Luton goal came off Konsa’s head….. before Chong scored. 

[TRO]

1 hour ago, Jareth said:

We can say what a weak team at set pieces, what a weak team at going 2-0 up, but you have to know that is exactly what Unai sees, and is why we go for 2 or 3 nil, we are lacking the beautiful forehead of mings and there is only one way to compensate.

Yeah.

and I for one, hope he addresses it, eventually.....but that is what the opposition managers see too.

 

 

 

[markavfc40]

21 minutes ago, TRO said:

but best teams find them.

I never heard of Mickey van der ven or Sven Botman...but they seem to have settled ok.

In fairness mate Van Der Ven is part of a team that have conceded two more goals than us in one less game. Sven Botman is part of a team that have conceded 8 more. Now obviously they aren't solely responsible for those sides defensive records and both Spurs and Newcastle have had defensive injuries. I'd argue though we have suffered as much as any side in that regard with arguably our best centre back being out all season, Pau Torres missing a quarter of the season, Konsa and Carlos being out for a number of games, Moreno missing the first 3rd of the season, Digne being out for a number of games and arguably our best defensive midfielder out from early Feb for the rest of the season. 

You take everything into account then it is in some ways remarkable we still have the 4th best defensive record (it is currently the 5th but I'd bet my house on Man Utd conceding today).

50 minutes ago, TRO said:

but, why is it ok to compare ourselves with the top 3 for goal scoring....where we are holding our own......

I'd say a massive reason for that is that Watkins has stayed fit all season and off the back of it had 26 goal contributions. You swap Mings getting the ACL for Watkins and I'd imagine we'd quite possibly now be talking about us not competing with the best teams in terms of goals scored. 

Edited March 3 by markavfc40

[DJBOB]

20 minutes ago, TRO said:

Hahaha......you're probably right.

but I think Pau is great, at what he does.

I think Mings is proving this far in to the season, just what a big miss he is.....we can only cover his absence for so long.

Lenglet is ok on the floor, and I am not sure about Carlos, looks a bit slow to me.

They are all rare gems...Pau is too....but best teams find them.

I never heard of Mickey van der ven or Sven Botman...but they seem to have settled ok.

The players are out there, we have to find the right ones to do the jobs.

Its inevitable, in every position, the further we climb the greasy pole, they harder is gets to find players of commensurate quality.....that's why we have Monchi, and his army of analysts.

Eh for as "good" as VDV and Botman are, their defenses are even worse than ours.

[DJBOB]

For context,

Newcastle are a shocking 16th in xGA and even more shocking is that West Ham are 17th.

I think, similar to the offside bit, there's a lot of talk about us being defensively weak because of appearance.

In reality, we are not as good defensively as the 3 title challenging teams.

Which is...probably about fair given our recent history.

[TRO]

28 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

All your points can be summarized into needing better defenders. 
 
There is no tactical or man management that can make Pau or Konsa into VVD or Ruben Dias or Saliba. 
 
They are a rare gem for a reason and we will need to scout very well to find that player without being beat to that player by all of the other clubs. 
 
We have a top striker, a top keeper, and a very good pairing at CB and at midfield. 
 
But will need to be elite at several positions to push on top 3. 
 
Let’s remember that this is the first time we could be in UCL in 40 years so this transformation is not going to be done in the next year or two even. 
 
5 years ago we were in the championship so we will have done exceptional to have reached 4th. 

I don't want to labour the point.....but I don't accept, we need elite CBs to stop some of the avoidable goals.....some are downright basic defending.

I simply don't accept the mitigation you present.

I accept your overall comment, that we need elite to challenge top 3......but some of the goals, we have conceded are not as a result, of the quality of centre back, maybe other reasons.

[TRO]

7 minutes ago, markavfc40 said:

In fairness mate Van Der Ven is part of a team that have conceded two more goals than us in one less game. Sven Botman is part of a team that have conceded 8 more. Now obviously they aren't solely responsible for those sides defensive records and both Spurs and Newcastle have had defensive injuries. I'd argue though we have suffered as much as any side in that regard with arguably our best centre back being out all season, Pau Torres missing a quarter of the season, Konsa and Carlos being out for a number of games, Moreno missing the first 3rd of the season, Digne being out for a number of games and arguably our best defensive midfielder out from early Feb for the rest of the season. 

You take everything into account then it is in some ways remarkable we still have the 4th best defensive record (it is currently the 5th but I'd bet my house on Man Utd conceding today).

I'd say a massive reason for that is that Watkins has stayed fit all season and off the back of it had 26 goal contributions. You swap Mings getting the ACL for Watkins and I'd imagine we'd quite possibly now be talking about us not competing with the best teams in terms of goals scored. 

Maybe, some Spurs fans think they have conceded too many too.....Both players have been out a fair bit, for Newcastle and Spurs.....but I am going on eye test Mark....as you say, when stats are involved, every player is responsible for defending.

I think your point about Ollie is apt.

I am particularly miffed, at Mings injury....I think he is such a big miss for us.

14 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

Eh for as "good" as VDV and Botman are, their defenses are even worse than ours.

if you are going by stats as opposed to eye test.....there are another 9 players that contribute to defensive stats.

I am talking about avoidable (imo) goals we have conceded.

[TRO]

14 minutes ago, DJBOB said:

For context,

Newcastle are a shocking 16th in xGA and even more shocking is that West Ham are 17th.

I think, similar to the offside bit, there's a lot of talk about us being defensively weak because of appearance.

In reality, we are not as good defensively as the 3 title challenging teams.

Which is...probably about fair given our recent history.

Newcastle's defence has been pulled apart by injury too, just like ours.

what do you mean " a lot of talk about us being defensively weak because of appearance"?

 

[Vive_La_Villa]

4 hours ago, TRO said:

I think the point is being missed here.....it's like the old chesnut....".Was we that bad, because they was that good, or was we that good, because they was that bad"

Its opinions.

If you are right, and "they threw everything at it".....why didn't they do that in the first half?. I would suggest it was because we was slick, and intense and competitive....and as Ollie admitted we came out Lax....why, I have no idea, but i do know its happened against other teams too, who was not fighting relegation.

We are fighting for Champions league, does that not count for a reason to be competitive?

I would suggest, Our second half approach, invited them back in, to have a go...and they did. Technical ability, was negated by their intensity, and willingness to engage physically, our response was half hearted tackles, which resulted in fouls and slow reactions to their running...our organisation melted away.

They mopped up nearly every, high ball, pumped in by Emi and that helped start the fight back, and the initiative shift.....second balls was being lost, and 50/50s with it.

We won in the end, and it will always be dismissed, by those who cling to the league table for solace....but remember these games, when our fortune, might not favour us, like against Man U....where similar traits, could be found.

This is not moaning....they are warning signs, that's all.....from folk, who want to be more convincing with our wins.

TRO I respect you a lot but I think if you want perfection you are supporting the wrong team mate.