LondonLax Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 Once these tanks are delivered it will be the first time a German tank has seen active duty in a war since the Nazis operated them. It is a bit of a mental hurdle for many Germans to get over. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 (edited) 3 minutes ago, LondonLax said: Once these tanks are delivered it will be the first time a German tank has seen active duty in a war since the Nazis operated them. It is a bit of a mental hurdle for many Germans to get over. You know, except for Syria, Afghanistan for v2 and a whole host of other conflicts for v1. That isn’t an argument. It was one Germany tried to use early on when someone pointed out that they used them in Afghanistan themselves, and have sold them to loads of countries who have used them in war. Edited January 24, 2023 by magnkarl 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 24, 2023 Moderator Share Posted January 24, 2023 3 minutes ago, LondonLax said: Once these tanks are delivered it will be the first time a German tank has seen active duty in a war since the Nazis operated them. It is a bit of a mental hurdle for many Germans to get over. Not remotely true Germany itself used them in Kosovo, Turkey used them in SYria 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 2 minutes ago, magnkarl said: You know, except for Syria, Afghanistan for v2 and a whole host of other conflicts for v1. That isn’t an argument. They were not Germany’s actual tanks. The German’s have not wheeled out on of their own and sent it to battle like this since WW2. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982am Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 3 minutes ago, LondonLax said: Once these tanks are delivered it will be the first time a German tank has seen active duty in a war since the Nazis operated them. It is a bit of a mental hurdle for many Germans to get over. The vid I posted on the last page tells you how many conflicts they've been in. As @magnkarl said Afghanistan/Syria etc. The first destroyed Leopard 2 was in Syria I believe. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
avfc1982am Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 6 minutes ago, LondonLax said: it will be the first time a German tank has seen active duty in a war since the Nazis operated them I'll leave this here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 (edited) 20 minutes ago, bickster said: Not remotely true Germany itself used them in Kosovo, Turkey used them in SYria Sorry, I must have been misinformed if Germany operated them in Kosovo. (Obviously I was not talking about kit they had sold to other militaries) This was the quote from the Guardian report today. Quote The decision marks a groundbreaking one for Germany ending months of painful debate and soul-searching with the move marking the first time that German tanks will have been used on the battlefield in Europe since the second world war. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/24/berlin-plans-to-send-german-leopard-tanks-to-ukraine-according-to-reports Edit: Although the detail on Kosovo makes the quote incorrect I think the general point is being dismissed too lightly on here. We are still talking about seeing tanks with German insignia being sent to fight Russians in Eastern Europe. The Germans might be the ‘good guys’ this time but from the comments I’ve seen, for a number of German commentators there are many in that country who struggle with the whole imagery of that, in ways we could not really understand. Edited January 24, 2023 by LondonLax 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KentVillan Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 5 minutes ago, LondonLax said: Sorry, I must have been misinformed if Germany operated them in Kosovo. (Obviously I was not talking about kit they had sold to other militaries) This was the quote from the Guardian report today. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/24/berlin-plans-to-send-german-leopard-tanks-to-ukraine-according-to-reports I know very little about tanks, but the Guardian’s fact checking process is only marginally better than the Daily Mail‘s. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 24, 2023 Moderator Share Posted January 24, 2023 6 minutes ago, LondonLax said: Sorry, I must have been misinformed if Germany operated them in Kosovo. (Obviously I was not talking about kit they had sold to other militaries) This was the quote from the Guardian report today. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/24/berlin-plans-to-send-german-leopard-tanks-to-ukraine-according-to-reports Its wrong Quote Combat history KFOR Starting on 12 June 1999, 28 Leopard 2A5 tanks were deployed to Kosovo by the German Army as part of the Kosovo Force (KFOR). The vehicles of Panzerbataillon 33 and 214 were sent from Macedonia to Prizren. They were used for patrols, protecting checkpoints and bases as well as part of the show of force. On 13 June 1999, two members of the Serbian paramilitary started firing from inside a Fiat 125p car at one of the checkpoints in Prizren and both were killed by return fire. A Leopard 2A5 was located at the checkpoint, but it could not participate in the fighting as it was only partially crewed.[70] On 26 June 1999, a Leopard 2A5 fired four warning shots above the town of Orahovac.[71] From late 2000 to early 2001, the tanks were replaced by the Leopard 2A4 model. Leopard 2A4s were deployed to Macedonia during 2001 as part of the NATO intervention. The tanks served to protect Bundeswehr logistic sites in Macedonia. Until their return in 2004, the Leopard 2 tanks were stationed at the Austrian-Swiss camp "Casablanca".[71] Wiki 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 19 minutes ago, LondonLax said: Sorry, I must have been misinformed if Germany operated them in Kosovo. (Obviously I was not talking about kit they had sold to other militaries) This was the quote from the Guardian report today. https://www.theguardian.com/world/2023/jan/24/berlin-plans-to-send-german-leopard-tanks-to-ukraine-according-to-reports Edit: Although the detail on Kosovo makes the quote incorrect I think the general point is being dismissed too lightly on here. We are still talking about seeing tanks with German insignia being sent to fight Russians in Eastern Europe. The Germans might be the ‘good guys’ this time but from the comments I’ve seen, for a number of German commentators there are many in that country who struggle with the whole imagery of that, in ways we could not really understand. The insignias will be removed and they’ll be re-camouflaged in Ukrainian colours. The argument for Germany is thin when someone like Erdogan has used said tanks to essentially commit war crimes against Kurds, no? Germany keeps delivering tanks to dodgy militaries but won’t even allow re-export to a country fighting genocide in their neighbourhood. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 3 minutes ago, magnkarl said: The insignias will be removed and they’ll be re-camouflaged in Ukrainian colours. The argument for Germany is thin when someone like Erdogan has used said tanks to essentially commit war crimes against Kurds, no? Germany keeps delivering tanks to dodgy militaries but won’t even allow re-export to a country fighting genocide in their neighbourhood. What do you mean? They are not only allowing re-export but are sending some of their own stock? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 Just now, LondonLax said: What do you mean? They are not only allowing re-export but are sending some of their own stock? They are now. They weren’t hours ago. The argument from Germany was thin all along, we knew it, they knew it. It was just a matter of piling enough pressure on the shills to the left of Scholz until they broke. Switzerland has also now agreed to re export of their ammunition. I presume someone’s had a frank conversation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 24, 2023 Moderator Share Posted January 24, 2023 Just now, LondonLax said: What do you mean? They are not only allowing re-export but are sending some of their own stock? For Vintage VTers…ITSOTP 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LondonLax Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 4 minutes ago, magnkarl said: They are now. They weren’t hours ago. The argument from Germany was thin all along, we knew it, they knew it. It was just a matter of piling enough pressure on the shills to the left of Scholz until they broke. Switzerland has also now agreed to re export of their ammunition. I presume someone’s had a frank conversation. To sum up, you dismiss Germany’s WW2 guilt as having any bearing and go straight to cynicism and I maintain the opinion that it is a factor in their thinking. I guess we will leave it there. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted January 24, 2023 Share Posted January 24, 2023 14 minutes ago, LondonLax said: To sum up, you dismiss Germany’s WW2 guilt as having any bearing and go straight to cynicism and I maintain the opinion that it is a factor in their thinking. I guess we will leave it there. It’s not about cynicism, it’s about Germany being selective about when said guilt matters. (See Syria). It’s about this only now being a problem because it’s about arming the enemy of many of the older guard around Scholz best mate. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Popular Post Mandy Lifeboats Posted January 25, 2023 Popular Post Share Posted January 25, 2023 Tanks are on the way but sometimes it’s the smaller efforts that make me proud. An Aussie car mechanic has gone to Ukraine. He takes any donated old Nissan 4 x 4 and services them. He then converts them to whatever can help. He has recently made 8 mini ambulances which house a driver and passenger sitting next to a stretcher and basic medical equipment. Just this 1 guy must have saved dozens of lives. 7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Demitri_C Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 Im sure this move will anger the russians hopefully this speeds up the process of ending this war with putin leaving with his tail between his legs Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 (edited) 50 Abrams also all but on the way. Likely ones without the reactive depleted uranium mesh. It'd only make sense to split the Leopard and Challenger\M1A1 regiments up, so that i.e. the Luhansk front receives Leopards, while the two other types go to i.e Donetsk. That way you don't need all parts and different fuels\lubricants in all locations. Or alternatively they'll just use them all in one punch towards Crimea, you never know. The U.S. decision to send M1 Abrams tanks to Ukraine breaks new ground. Quote The White House is expected to announce a decision as early as Wednesday, said the officials, who spoke on the condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the discussions. One official said the number of Abrams tanks could be about 30. Interestingly all 3 MBTs were designed to fight Russia, they've got anti T-72-90 specific tech, though they've never really been used against the enemy they were meant to fight apart from in the Gulf wars. The Abrams and Bradleys in particular absolutely tore through Saddam's T-72's and the T-72's on the Russian side so far are already ridiculously bad. Now that the West is out of first gear, let's move the goal post to ATACMS, and then fighter jets after that. Scared yet Vlad? Edited January 25, 2023 by magnkarl Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
magnkarl Posted January 25, 2023 Share Posted January 25, 2023 I read today that Spain alone has 350 or so Leopard 2, with almost half being in storage. They're willing to deliver at least 30 of these.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bickster Posted January 25, 2023 Moderator Share Posted January 25, 2023 When the talk of NATO MBTs for Ukraine hotted up, the Russians tried to hint by placing their stock of Armata in a military staging post for the offensive, knowing this would be picked up on the other side. A yes but.... Armata. Well British Intelligence posted this today Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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