National ID cards - good idea?

[snowychap]

Can someone answer a question for me.

If the conservatives come to power next year, and they have stated they will scrap the ID card scheme - do you think they can actually do that if the present government has committed to it?

As limpid says, yes, but...

I wouldn't be surprised if it were deemed that the process was too far down the line to make the kinds of savings in future spending that would be particularly attractive and therefore it might be seen as convenient to continue to run with the idea.

And I wouldn't be surprised if the contracts were so devised such that any cancellations might incur similar levels of costs as ploughing on.

I think it might also depend on how big a deal they (the Tories) make of it during an election campaign. If they make a big deal of it then I'd expect them to bin it.

I think it would be a big mistake, though, for anyone who objects to ID cards and a national ID database to rely upon, firstly, the Tories winning the next election and then, if they do, actually carrying out the binning of the scheme.

[Awol]

^ Chris Grayling the Shadow Home Sec stated categorically on R4 this morning that if they get in ID cards are history regardless of how far the process has gone. It will be a key manifesto commitment along with a referendum on the Euro Constitution.

Are the Lib Dems committed to repealing this authoritarian shite too?

[Gringo]

Its not a question of can they, its a question of will they

This.

The incumbents lies have been to hide as mcuh of the id cards into the cost of other projects such as passports and border agency work.

So the blue party will be able to drop the flag bearing project whilst keeping all the infrastructure in place and the big database with all the details on, and the next sign of 'emergency' (9/11, 7/7 or swine flu) force people to carry passports and we're back to square one.

This is why it was so wrong for the nulabour crowd to push on with the authoritarian provisions for at some time they would surely be out of power and allow the 'nasty' party to make use of their groundwork. The tories would never have got away with some of this stuff and must be grateful for the red party for doing their dirty work.

[Awol]

I do find it quite funny that after the McBride affair this

the 'nasty' party

is still being trotted out!!

[snowychap]

Chris Grayling the Shadow Home Sec stated categorically on R4 this morning that if they get in ID cards are history regardless of how far the process has gone. It will be a key manifesto commitment

So they say, mate.

And perhaps the headline 'ID card' would be history on the morning after an election but I think the picture that Gringo paints is where the real worry lies.

Has Mr Grayling come out and said that he/they would roll back every single bit of the infrastructure program that will have been undertaken by that time?

My point is that they (the Tories) are a political party and thus are not to be relied upon.

Remember that 'manifesto commitments are just broad aspirations'. :winkold:

Something else we have Gordo to thank for and I doubt we've heard the last of that kind of phrase.

[tonyh29]

If they make a big deal of it then I'd expect them to bin it.

thought a party could put what they like in a manifesto these days ..it's not like they are going to hold to them is it .....

ID cards and EU referendum will probably be a big deal at the next election .. I wouldn't go so far as to say people will waste a vote on the abstain party but I think it will make a lot of labour voters but their X elsewhere

[villal]

Out of interest does anyone have any stats regarding policies that have been put into place by one party only to be overturned by another as they come into power.

I bet its quite a short list.

Personally I cannot see anyone giving up control measures that are already in motion

[Jon]

they're introuding ID cards into manchester first i hear, on a voluntary basis.

Up to £60 a go each.

Oooooh, that sounds exciting, think i'll go an regsiter for that now. Just need 3 £20 notes and a lighter.

Who the feck, in their right mind, is going to voluntyeer to have one, ata cost of £60 to themselves?

[Awol]

Darren,

I work with the Tory PPC for North Warwickshire and a more honest and down to earth bloke you couldn't wish to meet (I have questioned why he's going into bollitics btw!). He is absolutely 100% certain that the Tories will bin the whole project in office. I raised the same question to him about the reliability of manifesto promises and he said that having observed the serial lying of the government over manifesto promises the Tories weren't about to make the same mistake. Short of putting 'Dave's' nuts in a vice then asking him personally I don't think you can get a more honest answer.

[ahamaad]

they're introuding ID cards into manchester first i hear, on a voluntary basis.

Up to £60 a go each.

Oooooh, that sounds exciting, think i'll go an regsiter for that now. Just need 3 £20 notes and a lighter.

Who the feck, in their right mind, is going to voluntyeer to have one, ata cost of £60 to themselves?

They'll be some idiots, trust me, who think that having this ID card will help catch terrorists.

[Gringo]

If you ask an minister if ID cards help stop terrorists, there is a standard template answer:

"No one can disagree that terrorists make use of false identities"

They don't answer the question - but neither do others when pushed on what spending cuts could be made. It's all politicians make believe wordy stuff.

[Richard]

I am seeing Chris Grayling the week after next. I will confirm with him about ID cards and the issue of cancelling them no matter how far down the line and rolling back the infrastructure that is in place.

[tonyh29]

They'll be some idiots, trust me, who think that having this ID card will help catch terrorists.

That will be Jacqui Smith :-)

Would be far cheaper to take the American approach and have it as a question on the back of your entry visa application :shock:

and a more honest and down to earth bloke you couldn't wish to meet

having met you , what are your trying to say about me :winkold:

[Jon]

They'll be some idiots, trust me, who think that having this ID card will help catch terrorists.

That will be Jacqui Smith :-)

Would be far cheaper to take the American approach and have it as a question on the back of your entry visa application :shock:

and a more honest and down to earth bloke you couldn't wish to meet

having met you , what are your trying to say about me :winkold:

That you are a Coniving Conservative, and not a Trustworthy Tory.

he has met me. I must be a shifty socialist .....

[snowychap]

Darren,

I work with the Tory PPC for North Warwickshire and a more honest and down to earth bloke you couldn't wish to meet (I have questioned why he's going into bollitics btw!). He is absolutely 100% certain that the Tories will bin the whole project in office. I raised the same question to him about the reliability of manifesto promises and he said that having observed the serial lying of the government over manifesto promises the Tories weren't about to make the same mistake.

Jon,

I don't doubt the sincerity of your colleague and I am not that skeptical about the sincerity of the likes of Grayling on this matter (at the moment).

As villal has alluded to, my skepticism comes into play with the sincerity of governments.

I understand, also, what he says about manifesto promises and, again, I don't doubt his sincerity on that but it is not until one is in a posiion to renege upon those promises that they really become tested.

Short of putting 'Dave's' nuts in a vice then asking him personally I don't think you can get a more honest answer.

I've said before that the reliability of evidence gained from torture is, at best, dubious.

[Richard]

They'll be some idiots, trust me, who think that having this ID card will help catch terrorists.

That will be Jacqui Smith :-)

Would be far cheaper to take the American approach and have it as a question on the back of your entry visa application :shock:

and a more honest and down to earth bloke you couldn't wish to meet

having met you , what are your trying to say about me :winkold:

That you are a Coniving Conservative, and not a Trustworthy Tory.

he has met me. I must be a shifty socialist .....

I thought you were moving towards being a laughable Liberal.

[Jon]

They'll be some idiots, trust me, who think that having this ID card will help catch terrorists.

That will be Jacqui Smith :-)

Would be far cheaper to take the American approach and have it as a question on the back of your entry visa application :shock:

and a more honest and down to earth bloke you couldn't wish to meet

having met you , what are your trying to say about me :winkold:

That you are a Coniving Conservative, and not a Trustworthy Tory.

he has met me. I must be a shifty socialist .....

I thought you were moving towards being a laughable Liberal.

indeed.

With a bit of Gullible Green thrown in for good measure.

[kidlewis]

ID cards will make bugger all difference, except a waste of £60. They will be cloned in days, will not keep anyone safe....at all.

Better off giving everyone £1,000 ISA.

[Awol]

Darren,

Short of putting 'Dave's' nuts in a vice then asking him personally I don't think you can get a more honest answer.

I've said before that the reliability of evidence gained from torture is, at best, dubious.

Torture? I thought most MP's paid for that kind of 'interrogation'..

On a more serious note we won't know until they get the chance to give it a go. I'd hope we can get through at least 12 months of politics (not bollitics) before the corruption kicks in and normal service resumes.

having met you , what are your trying to say about me

If you've got nothing nice to say..etc

[snowychap]

Weaseling shysters:

Ministers keep innocent on DNA database

The genetic profiles of hundreds of ­thousands of innocent people are to be kept on the national DNA database for up to 12 years in a decision critics claim is designed to sidestep a European human rights ruling that the "blanket" retention of suspects' data is unlawful.

The proposed new rules for the national DNA databaseto be put forward tomorrow by the home secretary, Jacqui Smith, include plans to keep the DNA profiles of innocent people who are arrested but not convicted of minor offences for six years.

The proposal would also apply to children from age 10 who are arrested but never successfully prosecuted.

In cases of more serious violent and sexual crime, innocent people's genetic codes will be kept for 12 years.

It was widely expected that the DNA profiles, samples and fingerprints of 850,000 innocent people kept on the database would be destroyed in response to the ruling by the European court of human rights last December.

But the proposals fall short of those expectations and contrast sharply with the situation in Scotland, where only the DNA profiles of suspects arrested for serious violent and sexual offences are retained for a maximum of five years.

Human rights groups, and opposition politicians united tonightin expressing dismay that the Home Office had rejected that option and predicted a race to the courts to challenge the new policy.

"The government just doesn't get this," said the shadow home secretary, Chris Grayling. The Liberal Democrats' Chris Huhne added: "This is an undignified rearguard action designed to give as little as possible."

Liberty's Shami Chakrabarti said: "Wholly innocent people – including ­children – will have their most intimate details stockpiled for years on a database that will remain massively out of step with the rest of the world."

But Home Office ministers say their ­proposals do comply with the landmark S and Marper judgment in Strasbourg which declared unlawful their policy of keeping all unconvicted suspects' DNA profiles indefinitely because of its "blanket and indiscriminate" nature. The police are now to be asked to spend up to two years trawling the existing 850,000 DNA profiles – the numerical digital code recording the individual's DNA – of innocent people on the database to see if any of them have a criminal record for any other offences.

The Home Office say 350,000 are known to be linked to entries on the police national computer. For the remaining 500,000 it is not yet possible to say whether their arrest led to a conviction or not and their DNA profile will be removed only once this check has been made.

The package proposed by the home secretary to meet the ruling include:

• Retaining indefinitely all DNA profiles and fingerprints of those convicted of an imprisonable offence.

• Keeping for 12 years the DNA profiles of those arrested but not convicted of serious sexual and violent offences.

• Keeping for six years the DNA profiles of those arrested but not convicted of minor offences.

• Removing the profiles of children when they reach 18 only if they have been arrested for only one minor offence.

• Adding the profiles of 30,000 more criminals convicted abroad or serving community sentences for serious offences.

• Destroying the genetic DNA samples held by the police once they have been converted into a DNA profile.

The home secretary said the database proposals would ensure that "the right people are on it, as well as considering where people should come off".

The Home Office estimates that even this package will mean 4,500 fewer crimes each year being detected ­compared with the current policy of retaining indefinitely the profiles of all those arrested.

"It is crucial that we do everything we can to protect the public by preventing crime and bringing offenders to justice. The DNA database plays a vital role in helping us do that and will help ensure that a great many criminals are behind bars where they belong," said Smith.

But Grayling said: "Ministers are just trying to get away with as little as they can instead of taking action to remove innocent people from the database." Huhne added that the number of innocent people on the database had risen to 925,000 since December's ruling.