Where is Villa's institutional memory?

[Woodytom]

Interesting post Plastic Man. I don't think there is one identity.  I think we each define what it means to be Villa and I suspect we all have different views. Things constantly change but for me Villa’s identity is rooted in my memories e.g. my first match, sitting on the shoulders of my dad, surging forward in the Holte after a goal, walking to and from games with my mates, seeing the old AV floodlights, watching really great games, singing the Bells are ringing with 40k+ fans, adoring favourite players like Morely, Mortimer and Gray and watching us win!  Could list many many more.  Its interesting.  I am older so I can still vividly remember us being a dominant and winning team, and I still see Villa in that way, as a truly great club.  The results and actions of the current era of owners, managers and players, and the media’s negative portrayal of the club, obviously dent away at that positive identity but it doesn’t change it, not for me.  I would like to think this is a blip in the story of Aston Villa and we will see the glory days again - we live in hope!  It’s interesting.  I guess a lot of younger fans will not have those memories and they will never have seen real success at Villa.  I suppose that’s why many see the club as a mediocre ‘also ran’ kind of club these days – it’s what we see every season and it is constantly reinforced by the media.  That kind of view grates me, because it runs counter to my own image of the club, but I can totally understand why some fans would have that perception as that is how we have been acting and performing recently.  It is noticeable to me that Tim is trying to change that perception (we are a massive club etc.) but until we start doing it in the markets and on the pitch it all seems a bit inauthentic – remember the awful kit launch promo this year! 

a blip? 

CriKey.  We're talking about over a 100 years of a blip with about 4/5 years in that where we actually did anything worth talking about.

I'm certainly not old enough to remember 82. I'm sure it was amazing.

However, for the past 2 decades, I identify villa as a club that 'bottles' it. No leadership, no backbone and certainly no mental toughness.

Ive never known a team capitulate so easily so often:

Examples:

Being top with dublin and Co before not even finishing in Europe.

4-1 up v Leicester. Drawing 4-4.

Not even turning up for two fa cup final in 2000/2015.

Being 2-0 up against manure and throwing it away in 6, six!?, minutes.

4-1 up v spurs. Drew 4-4

Throwing away the top 4 chance in a matter of games.

Crushing 7-1, 8-0 and 6-1 defeats.

The many so called superstars in the youth ranks that never materialise

And of course, Sunday.

 

These are just a few. I'm sure there is plenty more. There will be some in our favour, but not many. All clubs endure similar at times too, but we appear worst at it. Maybe because I'm a fan or perhaps the belief of where we should be.

I don't think we've lost an identity. I don't think it's missing. It's just not a very good one. We have those long standing players. We have gabby who has played 350 plus games and highlighted in his thread: that sums up aston villa. Our club captain lacks any form leadership, backbone or mental toughness.

People will jump on me saying I'm negative. I don't for one minute regret supporting aston villa. I enjoy every second of it. But let's not kid ourselves that this is some blip in some magical history, because it isn't.  We've been bottling it for the best part of a century looking at the history.

[Gary Thomas]

Was going to suggest Jack Woodward, but thought nah after I typed it.  Glad to se others also appreciate Jack's contribution to Aston Villa - what he says and does certainly lives in my memory 

[Gary Thomas]

A blip?  CriKey.  We're talking about over a 100 years of a blip with about 4/5 years in that where we actually did anything worth talking about........for the past 2 decades, I identify villa as a club that 'bottles' it. No leadership, no backbone and certainly no mental toughness......

As I say we all have different views and I respect yours.  A  "100 years of a blip with about 4/5 years in that where we actually did anything" is not correct (as I am sure you know) but I understand what you're saying about us capitulating far too often.....

[AntrimBlack]

Nice thought-provoking thread, PM. For me, the club's heart and soul is identified by it's history, and very few clubs can claim the long and proud history that we have. It is as simple as that for me, and no matter how the media or other English club's supporters may decry it, it will always be there. Players and staff are transient, the club is constant.

But I am one of the older supporters, and I realise that the younger supporters will have more difficulty in identifying with our amazing history.  

[VillaChris]

Interesting post Plastic Man. I don't think there is one identity.  I think we each define what it means to be Villa and I suspect we all have different views. Things constantly change but for me Villa’s identity is rooted in my memories e.g. my first match, sitting on the shoulders of my dad, surging forward in the Holte after a goal, walking to and from games with my mates, seeing the old AV floodlights, watching really great games, singing the Bells are ringing with 40k+ fans, adoring favourite players like Morely, Mortimer and Gray and watching us win!  Could list many many more.  Its interesting.  I am older so I can still vividly remember us being a dominant and winning team, and I still see Villa in that way, as a truly great club.  The results and actions of the current era of owners, managers and players, and the media’s negative portrayal of the club, obviously dent away at that positive identity but it doesn’t change it, not for me.  I would like to think this is a blip in the story of Aston Villa and we will see the glory days again - we live in hope!  It’s interesting.  I guess a lot of younger fans will not have those memories and they will never have seen real success at Villa.  I suppose that’s why many see the club as a mediocre ‘also ran’ kind of club these days – it’s what we see every season and it is constantly reinforced by the media.  That kind of view grates me, because it runs counter to my own image of the club, but I can totally understand why some fans would have that perception as that is how we have been acting and performing recently.  It is noticeable to me that Tim is trying to change that perception (we are a massive club etc.) but until we start doing it in the markets and on the pitch it all seems a bit inauthentic – remember the awful kit launch promo this year! 

a blip? 

CriKey.  We're talking about over a 100 years of a blip with about 4/5 years in that where we actually did anything worth talking about.

I'm certainly not old enough to remember 82. I'm sure it was amazing.

However, for the past 2 decades, I identify villa as a club that 'bottles' it. No leadership, no backbone and certainly no mental toughness.

Ive never known a team capitulate so easily so often:

Examples:

Being top with dublin and Co before not even finishing in Europe.

4-1 up v Leicester. Drawing 4-4.

Not even turning up for two fa cup final in 2000/2015.

Being 2-0 up against manure and throwing it away in 6, six!?, minutes.

4-1 up v spurs. Drew 4-4

Throwing away the top 4 chance in a matter of games.

Crushing 7-1, 8-0 and 6-1 defeats.

The many so called superstars in the youth ranks that never materialise

And of course, Sunday.

 

These are just a few. I'm sure there is plenty more. There will be some in our favour, but not many. All clubs endure similar at times too, but we appear worst at it. Maybe because I'm a fan or perhaps the belief of where we should be.

I don't think we've lost an identity. I don't think it's missing. It's just not a very good one. We have those long standing players. We have gabby who has played 350 plus games and highlighted in his thread: that sums up aston villa. Our club captain lacks any form leadership, backbone or mental toughness.

People will jump on me saying I'm negative. I don't for one minute regret supporting aston villa. I enjoy every second of it. But let's not kid ourselves that this is some blip in some magical history, because it isn't.  We've been bottling it for the best part of a century looking at the history.

We still won trophies in the 70s, 80s and 90s. Newcastle haven't won anything for god knows how long, Everton have had a longer trophy drought than we have, Spurs have won two league cups in the last 20 odd years, same as us.

I agree this last decade has been really bad, we're non-entities at premier league level now which you couldn't say at the turn of the Millennium as we were still top 6 regulars back then.

I do agree with you saying the club lacks bottle/belief on the big stage. That was the most disappointing thing about the cup final for me, teams like Reading and Hull had no problem setting up to give Arsenal a game and we just didn't believe from the kick off, couldn't believe there was just so many on here who just accepted that.

Probably the worst moment in the last decade for me would be thee Bradford semi. Even now I can't quite believe we couldn't beat a team from three divisions lower over 180 minutes, what's worse is the final would've been realistically winnable against Swansea aswell.

It will turn eventually, it did for a little under Lerner although we still didn't win anything but at least we were a decent premier league force. We just need fresh direction and leadership whoever the manager is.

[HanoiVillan]

I don't agree that 'it will turn', at least not to any great extent. In the last five years, the league has ossified totally. There's no way we could finish where we did under O'Neill even if we matched the scale of investment that happened in Lerner's early years. Without an earthquake in football financing, we're doomed to be battling for 7th or 8th for the foreseeable future.  

[VillaChris]

I've predicted Swansea to finish 6th this season actually, Southampton were what a point or two off 5th last season. Think Palace will be close to that group aswell as Spurs look the worst they have for years and Liverpool's results look to be pointing to a decline. If you can build and say finish in the top 10 for a couple of years, better quality starts wanting to play for you e.g. Ayew at Swansea and Cabaye at Palace so then the leap to 6th-7th dosen't seem that far, of course with our regular 16th place finishes it dose for us but we did go from 16th to 6th between 06-08.

CL Qualification is out of the question for the foreseeable future but 6th or 7th shouldn't be.

[El Zen]

I don't agree that 'it will turn', at least not to any great extent. In the last five years, the league has ossified totally. There's no way we could finish where we did under O'Neill even if we matched the scale of investment that happened in Lerner's early years. Without an earthquake in football financing, we're doomed to be battling for 7th or 8th for the foreseeable future.  

I think you're probably right, although I worry that 7th or 8th might be too ambitious. It feels like there's a deep rooted losing mentality at the club right now, as if we're suffering from collective depression. All of us, fans and players alike, need to grow some serious balls. We're Aston Villa, damn it, the opposition should hate playing against us. 

[Gary Thomas]

I would take battling for 7th for a few seasons....

[HanoiVillan]

To be clear, when I say 'battling for 7th', I don't mean I think that's where we'll finish any time soon, if at all. I just mean that on the morning of the first day of every season, 7th is the highest possible finish we could achieve. I was crudely diving the league into two, 1st-6th and 7th-20th. 

[El Zen]

To be clear, when I say 'battling for 7th', I don't mean I think that's where we'll finish any time soon, if at all. I just mean that on the morning of the first day of every season, 7th is the highest possible finish we could achieve. I was crudely diving the league into two, 1st-6th and 7th-20th. 

You're not wrong, but I do fear we're about to see a group of clubs establishing a kind of 'middle' third and that we are in danger of falling far behind even them. 

Edited September 19, 2015 by Michelsen

[Dave J]

Just reminding myself of the good old days.  4:32-5:13 is amazing.  Note the song been sung!

Gary Shaw! now that's a local boy done good

[Marka Ragnos]

Nice thought-provoking thread, PM. For me, the club's heart and soul is identified by it's history, and very few clubs can claim the long and proud history that we have. It is as simple as that for me, and no matter how the media or other English club's supporters may decry it, it will always be there. Players and staff are transient, the club is constant.

But I am one of the older supporters, and I realise that the younger supporters will have more difficulty in identifying with our amazing history.  

I can take only a drop of credit -- it's very much an adaptation of the Guardian's Raphael Honigstein's [note to mods: I don't really know what to excerpt on this link as I'm just trying to offer a link to his "homepage"] comments about "corporate identity" (not in a commercial sense, but more as a kind of "footballing body") at European clubs vs. English clubs, on the Guardian Weekly podcast last week. He was trying to account for why the Euro clubs so consistently beat us in Europe. It got me thinking about Villa because there seem to be so many factors working against us in these terms this year.

Edited September 19, 2015 by Plastic Man

[VillaChris]

To be clear, when I say 'battling for 7th', I don't mean I think that's where we'll finish any time soon, if at all. I just mean that on the morning of the first day of every season, 7th is the highest possible finish we could achieve. I was crudely diving the league into two, 1st-6th and 7th-20th. 

It's still winning many more games than we do now, to finish 6-7th you need 60 points so that's more than scraping 4-5 home wins in a season. It's more points, more goals, more excitement, more than we have to endure every season now.

At least when you're finishing those positions it doesn't't feel like you're a million miles off the top teams, they might aswell be in a different league to us as it stands and they might be next season.

[HanoiVillan]

I really think perhaps I wasn't clear enough. We're nowhere near finishing there in the short or medium-term. We'll be lucky to finish 17th this season.