Bali 9 Executions

[MrDuck]

 

Firstly, they were taking drugs OUT of Indonesia and not into it. A very important distinction I'd say. 

 

 

It's not an important distinction at all. They were smuggling heroin in Indonesia, the penalty was potentially death. You make your bed, you lie in it.

[One For The Road]

Firstly, they were taking drugs OUT of Indonesia and not into it. A very important distinction I'd say.

It's not an important distinction at all. They were smuggling heroin in Indonesia, the penalty was potentially death. You make your bed, you lie in it.

Of course it an important distinction. Those drugs were not heading for the streets of the country that executed them. Joko Widodo constantly used 'debatable' statistics regarding the damage drugs are doing to its citizens in order to gather public support for this disgraceful act. Indonesia is not a safer place today after these men were put to death.

And as for the comment about making your bed, well, how about compassion and reform? There are 200 Indonesians abroad on death row, many with unsafe convictions and almost no legal counsel. These people have almost no chance of clemency now. Nobody wins here. Everybody loses.

Also, those men spent the last years of their lives helping other inmates to turn their lives around. The prison warden himself has said on many occasions that drug use in the prison had fallen signicantly as a direct result of the mentoring programmes ran by Chan and Sukumaran. The whole case is frought with inconsistencies and corruption allegations and some of these were under review at the time of execution. How is that right? How can you just say "they made their bed" without considering all these facts?

Edited April 29, 2015 by One For The Road

[MrDuck]

Of course it an important distinction. Those drugs were not heading for the streets of the country that executed them. Joko Widodo constantly used 'debatable' statistics regarding the damage drugs are doing to its citizens in order to gather public support for this disgraceful act. Indonesia is not a safer place today after these men were put to death.

 

 

No, it's entirely irrelevant. The law stated that you could be executed for dealing drugs in Indonesia. Sure, that law is draconian, sure, Widodo is a self-serving prick like most other leaders, but you can't pick and choose which laws you obey - unless of course you're more than happy to face the consequences.

 

 

Also, those men spent the last years of their lives helping other inmates to turn their lives around. The prison warden himself has said on many occasions that drug use in the prison had fallen signicantly as a direct result of the mentoring programmes ran by Chan and Sukumaran. The whole case is frought with inconsistencies and corruption allegations and some of these were under review at the time of execution. How is that right? How can you just say "they made their bed" without considering all these facts?

 

 

Well at the risk of repeating myself ad-nauseum, why do I have to consider these facts? What about personal responsibility? No amount of post-arrest political games or apparent reform trumps that question for me. These men chose to put themselves into a position of mortal danger. There’s no way around that, they made a conscious decision to gamble with their lives... and lost. 

[One For The Road]

Of course it an important distinction. Those drugs were not heading for the streets of the country that executed them. Joko Widodo constantly used 'debatable' statistics regarding the damage drugs are doing to its citizens in order to gather public support for this disgraceful act. Indonesia is not a safer place today after these men were put to death.

No, it's entirely irrelevant. The law stated that you could be executed for dealing drugs in Indonesia. Sure, that law is draconian, sure, Widodo is a self-serving prick like most other leaders, but you can't pick and choose which laws you obey - unless of course you're more than happy to face the consequences.

Also, those men spent the last years of their lives helping other inmates to turn their lives around. The prison warden himself has said on many occasions that drug use in the prison had fallen signicantly as a direct result of the mentoring programmes ran by Chan and Sukumaran. The whole case is frought with inconsistencies and corruption allegations and some of these were under review at the time of execution. How is that right? How can you just say "they made their bed" without considering all these facts?

Well at the risk of repeating myself ad-nauseum, why do I have to consider these facts? What about personal responsibility? No amount of post-arrest political games or apparent reform trumps that question for me. These men chose to put themselves into a position of mortal danger. There’s no way around that, they made a conscious decision to gamble with their lives... and lost.

In black and white terms then yes. I get that. But my outrage stems from the way this has been dealt with and the lack of due process as well as the blatant political point scoring from the Indonesian government.

Putting aside the issue of where the drugs were heading, I accept that what they did was wrong, as did they, but that doesn't mean they should forego the right to a fair and proper judicial process free of gamesmanship and corruption. There were outstanding legal issues that were ignored, this cannot be forgotten. I believe in fairness and dignity. I do not believe that they were afforded either.

[AVFCforever1991]

at end of the day you know the consequences when you operate in a country with the death penalty although they dont deserve to die or do they? they smuggling drugs are killing people with drugs but id still say its very harsh, got to feel for their families.

 

By that logic the same treatment should be applied to the tobacco and alcohol companies...

Edited April 29, 2015 by AVFCforever1991

[One For The Road]

at end of the day you know the consequences when you operate in a country with the death penalty although they dont deserve to die or do they? they smuggling drugs are killing people with drugs but id still say its very harsh, got to feel for their families.

By that logic the same treatment should be applied to the tobacco and alcohol companies...

Exactly. I've just said similar in the drugs thread. Where do we draw the line with drugs? I mean, do we execute people for heroin but sell alcohol and cigarettes on every street corner, not to mention the vast array of OTC drugs you can buy in Bali that youd need a prescriotion for in the West. Indonesia also happens to have one of the highest mortality rates in the world linked directly to tobacco. Strange, I didn't hear Mr Widodo mention that fact in his rhetoric.

*And no I am not saying heroin is equal to tobacco but how can one be punishable by death and the other which kills FAR more people be sold openly in every shop in the country.

Edited April 29, 2015 by One For The Road

[One For The Road]

Here is a quote from AXL Rose of all people:

. "Widodo's refusal 2 postpone the executions until all legal challenges n' investigations of corruption r resolved is inexcusable."

Spot on.

[ThunderPower_14]

I'm really torn about this.

 

I am 100% against the death penalty, but I have absolutely no sympathy for the smugglers. Their families maybe, but not them.

 

The stupid thing in Australia, is that the whole narrative about why they should have been spared was because of how much they'd rehabilitated themselves. That's dumb for two reasons.

 

a) They've rehabilitated literally with a gun to their heads. What would they be up to now if they hadn't been caught? Probably still smuggling heroin.

 

Saying they should be spared because they've been rehabilitated implies that if they hadn't then the death penalty would be fair. They should be spared because no government should have the right to take anyone's life, ever. The rehabilitation argument actually hurts the case for them to be spared, IMO.

 

What happens next time when someone does it and can't handle the conditions mentally, and doesn't rehabilitate? What will we argue then?

[One For The Road]

I'm really torn about this.

I am 100% against the death penalty, but I have absolutely no sympathy for the smugglers. Their families maybe, but not them.

The stupid thing in Australia, is that the whole narrative about why they should have been spared was because of how much they'd rehabilitated themselves. That's dumb for two reasons.

a) They've rehabilitated literally with a gun to their heads. What would they be up to now if they hadn't been caught? Probably still smuggling heroin.

Saying they should be spared because they've been rehabilitated implies that if they hadn't then the death penalty would be fair. They should be spared because no government should have the right to take anyone's life, ever. The rehabilitation argument actually hurts the case for them to be spared, IMO.

What happens next time when someone does it and can't handle the conditions mentally, and doesn't rehabilitate? What will we argue then?

In normal circumstances you may have a point about the rehabilitation argument. However it was important in this case to highlight the good work they have done over the years and the reformation of their character's because this was always going to be about Widodo and his ratings. Showing the two men as rehabilitated characters, which they were, gave the president a potential get out clause with his subjects should he have chosen clemency. He could have argued that under normal conditions they would have faced death but as they have done so much good for so many people during their incarceration, he has opted for mercy. He could still have made his point AND come across as a humane and understanding leader. Also, are you suggesting that the defence team should have NOT mentioned the fact that they been rehabilitated, so as not to harm their cause?

In any case, this mitigation pales into insignificance almost given the fact that there were ongoing legal challenges at the time of execution. This alone is unforgivable and I hope they are brought to account for it.

*They won't be of course.

One other point. The reason to not execute them is because the death penalty is wrong. Rehabilitation is merely a mitigating factor to try to make the Indonesian government see that. The issue of capital punishment is far greater than the actions of two men on death row. It should be abolished in every country in the world and the fact that these men DID change is testimony to that very notion.

Edited April 29, 2015 by One For The Road

[MrDuck]

 

a) They've rehabilitated literally with a gun to their heads. What would they be up to now if they hadn't been caught? Probably still smuggling heroin.

 

Saying they should be spared because they've been rehabilitated implies that if they hadn't then the death penalty would be fair. They should be spared because no government should have the right to take anyone's life, ever. The rehabilitation argument actually hurts the case for them to be spared, IMO.

 

 

 

Agreed

[MrDuck]

 

 

at end of the day you know the consequences when you operate in a country with the death penalty although they dont deserve to die or do they? they smuggling drugs are killing people with drugs but id still say its very harsh, got to feel for their families.

By that logic the same treatment should be applied to the tobacco and alcohol companies...

Exactly. I've just said similar in the drugs thread. Where do we draw the line with drugs? I mean, do we execute people for heroin but sell alcohol and cigarettes on every street corner, not to mention the vast array of OTC drugs you can buy in Bali that youd need a prescriotion for in the West. Indonesia also happens to have one of the highest mortality rates in the world linked directly to tobacco. Strange, I didn't hear Mr Widodo mention that fact in his rhetoric.

*And no I am not saying heroin is equal to tobacco but how can one be punishable by death and the other which kills FAR more people be sold openly in every shop in the country.

 

 

You're comparing apples and oranges here though.

 

We sell alcohol and cigarettes... but we do so through legitimate channels that have rules in place to make sure that the products meet certain guidelines. We all know alcohol can be bad for us, but at least we can buy it in the knowledge that it's not cooked up with who-knows-what in some junky's shed, and that our beer and cigarettes are not funding prostitution rings etc etc. Personally I'd legalise them all, but until the playing field is level I don't think you can make a purposeful comparison.

[Ponky]

There was probably good reason for considering commuting the death sentence with regard to the two Aussies on the basis of their rehabilitation but personally I have very little sympathy.

EVERYONE in Australia knows if you get caught smuggling drugs in countries like Indonesia, Vietnam and Thailand you are as good as dead. You don't do it unless you are prepared to chance having to pay the penalty.

The hand-wringing and indignation coming from the Australian media is rather pathetic. If two Australian citizens were not among the nine I guarantee you no-one in this country would have even known about the executions.

[One For The Road]

at end of the day you know the consequences when you operate in a country with the death penalty although they dont deserve to die or do they? they smuggling drugs are killing people with drugs but id still say its very harsh, got to feel for their families.

By that logic the same treatment should be applied to the tobacco and alcohol companies...

Exactly. I've just said similar in the drugs thread. Where do we draw the line with drugs? I mean, do we execute people for heroin but sell alcohol and cigarettes on every street corner, not to mention the vast array of OTC drugs you can buy in Bali that youd need a prescriotion for in the West. Indonesia also happens to have one of the highest mortality rates in the world linked directly to tobacco. Strange, I didn't hear Mr Widodo mention that fact in his rhetoric.

*And no I am not saying heroin is equal to tobacco but how can one be punishable by death and the other which kills FAR more people be sold openly in every shop in the country.

You're comparing apples and oranges here though.

We sell alcohol and cigarettes... but we do so through legitimate channels that have rules in place to make sure that the products meet certain guidelines. We all know alcohol can be bad for us, but at least we can buy it in the knowledge that it's not cooked up with who-knows-what in some junky's shed, and that our beer and cigarettes are not funding prostitution rings etc etc. Personally I'd legalise them all, but until the playing field is level I don't think you can make a purposeful comparison.

As I said in my last sentence, I am not trying to compare I am asking where we draw the line whilst using two examples. And what prostitution rings have to do with the health of the Indonesian people I hav no idea. Joko Widodo justifies death for drug smugglers on the basis that it harms the population And yet they have one of the highest rates of tobacco related deaths in the world. I'm sure he takes a nice cut from the tabacco companies though so thats ok. Let's just pretend that doesn't matter. Tobacco is a drug that kills more people in Indonesia than almost any other country in the world and yet they do nothing to prevent it. Heroin which is also an evil drug kills far less people and although it must be controlled, I see execution for heroin particularly disgraceful given the death sentences people are suffering in their thousands thanks to Tobacco.

[One For The Road]

a) They've rehabilitated literally with a gun to their heads. What would they be up to now if they hadn't been caught? Probably still smuggling heroin.

Saying they should be spared because they've been rehabilitated implies that if they hadn't then the death penalty would be fair. They should be spared because no government should have the right to take anyone's life, ever. The rehabilitation argument actually hurts the case for them to be spared, IMO.

Agreed

Agreed? You think that the Australian legal team should not have mentioned the fact that they are rehabilitated because it harmed their defence? Edited April 29, 2015 by One For The Road

[One For The Road]

There was probably good reason for considering commuting the death sentence with regard to the two Aussies on the basis of their rehabilitation but personally I have very little sympathy.

EVERYONE in Australia knows if you get caught smuggling drugs in countries like Indonesia, Vietnam and Thailand you are as good as dead. You don't do it unless you are prepared to chance having to pay the penalty.

The hand-wringing and indignation coming from the Australian media is rather pathetic. If two Australian citizens were not among the nine I guarantee you no-one in this country would have even known about the executions.

Are you forgetting the fact that there were ongoing legal challenges? Even if you think they should have been executed for their crime do you not believe in a fair and just legal system?

I feel very strongly about this case and I think people are skpiping over due process as though it doesn't matter because, "they knew the risks" or " they made their bed" etc..

Edited April 29, 2015 by One For The Road

[Ponky]

As far as I am aware all legal challenges had been exhausted and they were awaiting a review from the Indonesian Attorney General which for obvious political reasons was never going to happen prior to the execution.

I don't condone the death penalty by the way. I have compassion and sympathy for their families and feel sad that two human lives have been snuffed out like this.

However, in effect, they chose this by the actions they undertook.

[chrisp65]

No difference whatsoever whether the drugs were going in or out of the country, bizarre point to make on the direction of travel.

 

As for being vehemently against unfair execution of people that haven't had a fair chance. I guess a few of you will be boycotting holidays to the USA? Or are there degrees of acceptability to death penalties and ropey judicial process?

 

I am not pro the death penalty, just to make that clear.

[One For The Road]

As far as I am aware all legal challenges had been exhausted and they were awaiting a review from the Indonesian Attorney General which for obvious political reasons was never going to happen prior to the execution.

I don't condone the death penalty by the way. I have compassion and sympathy for their families and feel sad that two human lives have been snuffed out like this.

However, in effect, they chose this by the actions they undertook.

Well I'm afraid you are mis-informed. There are indeed ongoing challenges pertaining to allegations of bribery involving the initial hearing. There are also suggestions that they may have broken international law in repspect of the judicial process. Edited April 29, 2015 by One For The Road

[One For The Road]

No difference whatsoever whether the drugs were going in or out of the country, bizarre point to make on the direction of travel.

As for being vehemently against unfair execution of people that haven't had a fair chance. I guess a few of you will be boycotting holidays to the USA? Or are there degrees of acceptability to death penalties and ropey judicial process?

I am not pro the death penalty, just to make that clear.

I will refuse to travel to any country that disregards its own legal processes in order to fulfill a political goal. If the USA was to do that then I would indeed boycott that country.

As for the direction of travel, it matters because the mantra Widodo consistently delivered was that the drugs were harming the people of Indonesia. Those drugs were already IN the country when the Bali 9 arrived and were in fact taking them OUT of the country. Ordinarily I'd say there's no difference but the devil is very much in the detail in this case. This was nothing more than political point scoring from an under pressure head of state.

[chrisp65]

What do you mean 'if' the USA was to do that? Have you seen no news in the last 12 months?

All those riots?

OK it's not drug related, but there is a massive problem with a broken police force and political establishment murdering and framing the under classes. It's clearly endemic in some of those places, Montgomery being the one with the spotlight on it at the moment. Baltimore currently has curfews and national guard on the streets.

 

Once you start declaring states 'rogue' and blacklisted because of one form of corruption or another it really does set a bit of a bar. Will you boycott Russian goods because Russia is illegally bombing Ukrainian families today? Those families are dying and have done nothing wrong. But then I suppose the mortars were leaving Russian held land not arriving, so it's less bad.

 

Let's not even begin to look at China...