One For The Road Posted April 29, 2015 Author Share Posted April 29, 2015 (edited) What do you mean 'if' the USA was to do that? Have you seen no news in the last 12 months? All those riots? OK it's not drug related, but there is a massive problem with a broken police force and political establishment murdering and framing the under classes. It's clearly endemic in some of those places, Montgomery being the one with the spotlight on it at the moment. Baltimore currently has curfews and national guard on the streets. Once you start declaring states 'rogue' and blacklisted because of one form of corruption or another it really does set a bit of a bar. Will you boycott Russian goods because Russia is illegally bombing Ukrainian families today? Those families are dying and have done nothing wrong. But then I suppose the mortars were leaving Russian held land not arriving, so it's less bad. Let's not even begin to look at China...I have said almost exactly this to someone earlier today. I agree with it word for word. What I meant to say was that I will not revisit Indonesia mostly because of the way this particular case has been handled. It's a personal choice and may not make a lot of sense to you but I have my reasons in this instance. They showed total disregard for even their OWN laws in this matter and that is worrying in the extreme. Edited April 29, 2015 by One For The Road Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponky Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Personally I won't hesitate to go back to Bali. While I don't care much for Indonesia in general the Balinese are among the most gentle and peaceful people I have encountered and don't see any value in punishing them for something they have no direct say in. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jon Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 at end of the day you know the consequences when you operate in a country with the death penalty although they dont deserve to die or do they? they smuggling drugs are killing people with drugs but id still say its very harsh, got to feel for their families. How else are you going to get your coke supply mate? People are putting their lives at risk to get you your recreational fix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One For The Road Posted April 29, 2015 Author Share Posted April 29, 2015 (edited) Personally I won't hesitate to go back to Bali. While I don't care much for Indonesia in general the Balinese are among the most gentle and peaceful people I have encountered and don't see any value in punishing them for something they have no direct say in. I have had a huge debate about this on Facebook. Many people want to suspend aid to Indonesia as a punishment to them over this case. I do NOT want that to happen. I too have been to Indonesia and found the people wonderful. I DO however have reservations about going back there knowing that the governemnt cares little for human life and is prepared to bypass due process in order to make a point. Indonesia has one of the biggest tobacco industries in the world fuelled by incredibly aggressive cigarette advertising and absolutely no health warnings. They claim to care about the well-being of their people but this suggest the contrary. These people were executed to make a point, as a symbol of its autonomy and as a two fingers to the international community. A flexing of its proverbial muscle as a reassurance to an unconvinced electorate. I do not want Indonesians to suffer and my not going will not change that. I am totally against cutting aid to a country of 170 million people who, for the most part, struggle on a daily basis. I just don't feel comfortable going back at this time as I am totally disgusted with the actions of the government. Maybe it's irrational given the fact I spend my life travelling to all sorts of countries but I am human and I have emotions and this case has left me unspeakably angry. I do hope the families of the victims of this murderous act can one day find some peace. Somehow. Edited April 29, 2015 by One For The Road Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
StefanAVFC Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Anti death penalty but if you're stupid enough to smuggle drugs in a country that kills you if you're caught, you deserve it. Condolences to the families. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ponky Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 That's fair enough mate. That's your voice and I totally respect that. The thing is though that the Indonesian government has been carrying out government sanctioned atrocities in places like Irian Jaya (West Papua) for decades and not too much angst has been whipped up over that lot. Seems like pretty massive double standards from the western media and the Facebook warriors. Not having a go at you personally as you are clearly very passionate about this issue. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
One For The Road Posted April 29, 2015 Author Share Posted April 29, 2015 That's fair enough mate. That's your voice and I totally respect that. The thing is though that the Indonesian government has been carrying out government sanctioned atrocities in places like Irian Jaya (West Papua) for decades and not too much angst has been whipped up over that lot. Seems like pretty massive double standards from the western media and the Facebook warriors. Not having a go at you personally as you are clearly very passionate about this issue. No I agree with you. We are all guilty of double standards sometimes in our lives because we are human beings with emotions. Emotions come from within, they dont descriminate or look for parallels. We are also selfish creatures by nature in some ways and this is another trait of being a human. Why do we care so much about one thing and yet not give much or any thought to another despite them being equally as important? Relevance. Personal relevance. Indonesia has acted terribly in Papua and Timor especially but then so have our own governments. It doesn't mean we can't be angry or upset about something just because we didn't get angry about something else. We SHOULD think that way but we just don't as a rule. I sincerely hope that the anger and emotion form this tragic event can be channelled into making positive changes. Now is not the time for retribution but for reflection and considered action. As Richard Branson pointed out last month, Portugal since its decriminalization of drugs has seen heroin abuse drop by a staggering 90% and HIV infection by 93%. That's what can happen when you treat drug abuse as a health issue and not a legal one. The war on drugs will never be won the way we are approaching it. Executing drug traffickers solves nothing. Education is required on a global scale so we can all tackle this problem intelligently, effectively and compassionately. Too many lives are being lost. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikantcpell Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Personally i think that anyone who deals with heroin deserves a bullet between the eyes. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Personally i think that anyone who deals with heroin deserves a bullet between the eyes. Alcohol and Tobacco kill millions more people every year than heroin. Should liquor store and corner shop owners be shot too? I think if you're a dope dealer with a bad batch but continue to sell it, you should have your legs broke and put in a cage for a long time if people die from it. But there's a double standard in play when it comes to legal and illegal substances. The social cost of alcohol is almost immeasurable compared to heroin. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 (edited) at end of the day you know the consequences when you operate in a country with the death penalty although they dont deserve to die or do they? they smuggling drugs are killing people with drugs but id still say its very harsh, got to feel for their families. How else are you going to get your coke supply mate? People are putting their lives at risk to get you your recreational fix. not sure how to take this post but people who smuggle drugs know the consequences like people who take drugs do. no demand= no smugglers, no smugglers= no drugs. animals are dying so we get our food fix, people are slogging their guts out for pennies in shit conditions to put clothes on our back etc etc its the way of the world. Edited April 29, 2015 by Rugeley Villa Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikantcpell Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 Personally i think that anyone who deals with heroin deserves a bullet between the eyes. Alcohol and Tobacco kill millions more people every year than heroin. Should liquor store and corner shop owners be shot too? I think if you're a dope dealer with a bad batch but continue to sell it, you should have your legs broke and put in a cage for a long time if people die from it. But there's a double standard in play when it comes to legal and illegal substances. The social cost of alcohol is almost immeasurable compared to heroin. I dont think you realise what heroin does to a human, the addiction is so strong you could kill your own mother or daughter just to get another fix Why do you think that alcohol and tobacco is legal but heroin is not ? Ive known alot of people who are now dead cause of heroin and they didnt die when they were 65 cause of cancer, they all died between 25-29. And the suffering they had before they died was just something else, you cannot understand it if you have not seen it. One girl who was the hottest girl in this town. evrybody dreamt of having her, she falled for this "bad boy" who got her into heroin. She sold herself to 50 year old kosovo albanian men( they are the ones that brings in and sell 90% of the heroin in sweden according to the swedish police) She is still alive but her friends are all dead. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rugeley Villa Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 heroin is a terrible drug, ive never dabbled with it but i know people who are dead or messed up over it. i cant stress enough how bad alcohol can be though. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 (edited) you cannot understand it if you have not seen it. I have seen it, and known people who have died from it. I also know people who have died from alcohol poisoning, and lung cancer from smoking. If you were to tally up the number of deaths due to over consumption of alcohol, chronic drinking, drunk driving, fatal violence and accidents due to alcohol compared to heroin, alcohol wins in a landslide. Now, if heroin were made legal and quality/safety measures were introduced, overdoses would plummet, and most of the crime related to heroin addiction (burglary, petty theft) would also plummet. The difference between alcohol and heroin is drunk people tend to become aggressive and make terrible decisions by fighting, driving, gambling, etc. The heroin user usually just wants to sit on the sofa. The problem starts when the quality and potency of the supply becomes unpredictable and people OD. If you had a reputable heroin company (Like Bayer once was), OD deaths would be rare. Not to mention the fact that hundreds of thousands of non violent heroin users and dealers are locked up in prison, which is a travesty, especially for the users. Same goes for marijuana and cocaine etc. Make drugs legal, tax them, regulate them, take the criminality out of it and watch as societies are uplifted. Edited April 29, 2015 by maqroll 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ikantcpell Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 you cannot understand it if you have not seen it. I have seen it, and known people who have died from it. I also know people who have died from alcohol poisoning, and lung cancer from smoking. If you were to tally up the number of deaths due to over consumption of alcohol, chronic drinking, drunk driving, fatal violence and accidents due to alcohol compared to heroin, alcohol wins in a landslide. Now, if heroin were made legal and quality/safety measures were introduced, overdoses would plummet, and most of the crime related to heroin addiction (burglary, petty theft) would also plummet. The difference between alcohol and heroin is drunk people tend to become aggressive and make terrible decisions by fighting, driving, gambling, etc. The heroin user usually just wants to sit on the sofa. The problem starts when the quality and potency of the supply becomes unpredictable and people OD. If you had a reputable heroin company (Like Bayer once was), OD deaths would be rare. Not to mention the fact that hundreds of thousands of non violent heroin users and dealers are locked up in prison, which is a travesty, especially for the users. Same goes for marijuana and cocaine etc. Make drugs legal, tax them, regulate them, take the criminality out of it and watch as societies are uplifted. You think it's a travesty that heroin dealers are locked up in prison ?? The heroin user just want to sit on the sofa ? yeah well maybe during the fix but not the other time. Some criminal gangs here in sweden hire heronists when they want someone dead, they give him a few grams for the favor. Yes it's true that alcohol and tobacco cost the society huge sums, but you cannot compare it to heroin. And making it legal would be a very bad idea. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
maqroll Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 You think it's a travesty that heroin dealers are locked up in prison ?? Because I think it should be legal, yes. It is a travesty of public policy that is proven to be ineffective. There will always be another dealer willing to fill the void, but the machinery of the "War on Drugs" grinds on. Until there is a fundamental shift in how we view drugs, nothing will change. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted April 29, 2015 Share Posted April 29, 2015 If the UK government were serious about their attitude to drugs, I guess they'd stop people using them in prison? But they don't do they. They have an environment where they could easily stop drugs and offer the very best of rehab.. Instead they allow the drugs in, they allow gangs to run wings and they use drug use as a control mechanism rather than employ expensive staff. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AVFCforever1991 Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Personally i think that anyone who deals with heroin deserves a bullet between the eyes. What about all those US troops guarding the poppy fields in Afghanistan? Surely they play a part in all this... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
B94villa Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Personally i think that anyone who deals with heroin deserves a bullet between the eyes. What about all those US troops guarding the poppy fields in Afghanistan? Surely they play a part in all this... You're going to need a bigger gun... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
chrisp65 Posted April 30, 2015 Share Posted April 30, 2015 Personally i think that anyone who deals with heroin deserves a bullet between the eyes. What about all those US troops guarding the poppy fields in Afghanistan? Surely they play a part in all this... Sorry, just to be clear, are you claiming the USA has ever, anywhere, allowed selected groups to raise money from drugs? You are outrageous Mr Reagan-Contra-Misunderstanding-Freedom-Heroes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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