Smoking ban.

[TRL]

Right just to clear some things up, Pubs are not public places. The licensee has the right to refuse to serve anyone for any reason he sees fit, no one has the right of access to a pub, he is there at the licensee's discretion

And a 2.8% downturn in business is enough to close some pubs on the margins of the trade, it may sound an insignificant amount but it isn't

Are the pub owners allowed to discriminate and put labels on people?

[bickster]

I call them the itsnotfairies

[drat01]

Absolutely they are TRL - when you enter one of these establishments you basically have to abide by their rules

[TRL]

Ah so you can start shops for white people only aswell?

[drat01]

Ah so you can start shops for white people only aswell?

Yes you can - its called SelfTanning Booth's

[bickster]

Right just to clear some things up, Pubs are not public places. The licensee has the right to refuse to serve anyone for any reason he sees fit, no one has the right of access to a pub, he is there at the licensee's discretion

And a 2.8% downturn in business is enough to close some pubs on the margins of the trade, it may sound an insignificant amount but it isn't

Are the pub owners allowed to discriminate and put labels on people?

Yes, in the UK you have the right to not serve anyone you choose for whatever reason you see fit, you do not have to give a reason. You are in charge of order in your establishment, to take away the licensee's right to discriminate you also take away the right of the establishment to prosecute the landlord for offences that take place on his property.

[bickster]

Ah so you can start shops for white people only aswell?

Yes but you can't advertise it, that would be racism

[TRL]

Define racisme Bicks. Discrimination comes to mind.

[bickster]

I'd say advertising a whites only shop was racist by anyones definition of the word

and anyway back to the Nosmo King debate please

[drat01]

Different though TRL, you being white does not affect my health. The Chinese man in the corner of the pub smoking affects others health not by him being yellow but by the smoke he pushes out for all to inhale

[jimmygreaves]

Different though TRL, you being white does not affect my health. The Chinese man in the corner of the pub smoking affects others health not by him being yellow but by the smoke he pushes out for all to inhale

The extensive reasearch proffered to back this up unfortunatley doesn't exist.

[dundeevilla]

Risso if you don't believe me that's up to you. But if it helps convince you any, 'I swear on my life that I have seen it in action on more than one occasion in the last 12 months and it seemed to work fine.'

Hahaha "On more than once occasion", so, you're scaling down your "many" visits to Spain are you. Come back when you've got something more meaningful to contribute than your two week trip to Majorca last year.

OK, if you must know I have ben to Spain six times in the last 12 months for various business and personal reasons. Sastisfied? You got anything more meaningful to contribute than this ignorant schoolboy sneering. You don't know me and couldn't possibly know my travelling habits, so best pipe down old bean. You just end up looking like an arse otherwise.

[drat01]

Jimmy normally I agree with nearly 100% of what you say but to say that smoke does not affect others is just wrong mate

[jimmygreaves]

Jimmy normally I agree with nearly 100% of what you say but to say that smoke does not affect others is just wrong mate

Smoke probably does affect others (health) but unless it can be proved scientifically then it's nothing more than an unpleasant inconvenience and as such it shouldn't be banned. It's a fine line yes but are they looking at banning farting in public places.

I'm a non-smoker so you'd think I'd be in favour of a ban but not this way.

If they want to bad smoking in public places for health reasons then they should ban cigarettes in the publics interest. Any other way is hypocritcal.

[TRL]

Might just be that they are taking one step at the time JG.

Give them some time and you might have your wish.

[peterms]

At least I actually bother posting links - you could check the others out now.

I think the point remains, though, that most of the comments in what you've linked point to the drink driving crackdown as being far more significant than the smoking ban. And I'm sure you don't expect us to take the smokers' lobby group as a source of objective information.

It is true that there has been a rapid acceleration in the number of rural Irish pubs closing. Before leaping so quickly to conclude that this is because of the smoking ban, despite the comments of friends, family, publicans and assorted worthies, consider the logic of the situation.

Pubs have closed in some areas, and opened in others. But the smoking ban applies equally in both. Are rural smokers so much more resitant than townies to popping outside for a fag? Unlikely, I'd have thought.

The drink-driving crackdown, though, is a far more important disincentive to pub-going in rural areas where there is little or no public transport. As some of the comments you've quoted show, that is seen as a big problem for rural pubs.

Also, to create a new drinks licence you have to extinguish an existing one. So some pubs are being bought by people who want the licence for a more profitable use, but not the pub.

Saying that the smoking ban came in, pubs are closing, therefore the closures are because of the ban, without taking into account all these other things, is really a very weak and misleading argument.

The Irish Times covered these arguments a few months ago - I'm not sure this link will work for many of you, it's a subscription service, so I've quoted it below and bolded a couple of key points.

Consumer Affairs Correspondent Paul Cullen

Rural pubs are closing at a rate of more than one a day as drinkers move their custom to urban bars and off-licences, new figures show.

Almost 440 fewer pub licences were issued or renewed last year compared to 2005, according to the figures compiled by the Revenue Commissioners. This is the steepest decline ever recorded.

The Vintners' Federation of Ireland (VFI) responded to the figures yesterday by calling on the Government to give rates relief to rural pubs and reductions in vehicle registration tax for members who provide transport for their customers.

"Small post offices are gone, corner shops have been decimated and even the church is suffering a shortage of priests. Now the last bastion of rural Ireland where people interact socially is under threat," said Paul Stevenson, president of the VFI.

The biggest falls were recorded in the Border, Midlands and Western (BMW) counties, where 227 pub licences were lost, and in counties Kerry, Cork, Clare and Limerick, where licences fell by 130.

In contrast, Dublin lost just 10 licences and the rest of Leinster 70.

While pub numbers are plummeting, the off-licence trade is booming.

There were 46 additional off-licences in Munster last year, 155 in Leinster and 46 in Dublin.

In the BMW region, however, the number of off-licences fell by 40.

Vintners' groups have been warning about the difficulties faced by rural pubs since the smoking ban was introduced in 2004 and random breath-testing started last year.

However, these figures are even worse than they predicted, as the opening of new pubs in urban centres is partly offset by a bigger fall in pub licences in rural areas.

"The number of rural pubs closing is even greater than was thought," said Constance Cassidy SC, an expert on licensing law.

"However, there has been a redistribution of licences in accordance with public demand, rather than any being lost.

"People want to drink at home, or in hotels."

Although drink licensing has been liberalised in recent years, it is still necessary to extinguish one drinks licence to create another.

Many rural pub licences are being bought by business interests who use the permit to open an urban pub or off-licence.

Demand has been particularly heavy from convenience stores which need a licence to sell beer.

Another trend has seen up to 40 per cent of pub sales, particularly in high-value urban areas, go to developers who seek to build apartments on the site.

According to Ms Cassidy, the market price for a pub licence is about €175,000-€185,000, compared to about €85,000 in 2000.

The counties suffering the greatest loss of pubs are Mayo, which lost 91 licences last year, and Galway, down by 55. Limerick had 43 fewer licences, Kerry 33, Clare 29, Tipperary 27 and Cork 25.

Overall, there are about 8,500 pubs in the State.

[peterms]

And a 2.8% downturn in business is enough to close some pubs on the margins of the trade, it may sound an insignificant amount but it isn't

Agree.

But in cases where the business is struggling to the extent that a downturn in trade (not profit) of 2.8% is enough for the business to go under, and where they have the option of selling the premises, selling the licence (see above), and making a bigger return more quickly, don't you think they will already have been actively considering this option?

It's simply not the case that everyone was existing in a happy, steady-state until the smoking ban came and ruined eveything. If you want an analogy, look at owners of private care homes who are selling up and cashing in. They will give as their reason the increase in regulation, the trimming of placement rates and so on. Truth is, it's not any one factor - it's a complex set of circumstances which taken in the round means that another option begins to look more attractive. Many of these would have sold up anyway, because it makes financial sense. Just because they say that one factor did it, doesn't mean it's so.

[Risso]

The other thing about the ban is that it's hardly been introduced overnight has it? It's been announced for ages, giving both customers and businesses ample time to prepare. Also, are publicans the only industry to be affected by changes in legislation? I don't think so, businesses have to adapt and change all the time.

The facts are that people are still going to drink, and I don't know anybody who smokes who will stop going to the pub because they have to nip outside for a cigarette.

[Jon]

, and I don't know anybody who smokes who will stop going to the pub because they have to nip outside for a cigarette.

me neither Mart.

I do know of some who only smoke casually when they go out for a drink who have said that this may make them stop/cut-down (which is surely a good thing?) but none of the smokers i know have said they will stop going to the boozer.

I just think somkers will probably cut down a little, rather than chain smoking down the pub as many do now they will be more slective about when they choose to go outside and spark up.

Can't see a problem with this myself - apart from loads more fag ends on the streets outside pubs!

[Grant(aka_eddy)]

Jimmy normally I agree with nearly 100% of what you say but to say that smoke does not affect others is just wrong mate

Smoke probably does affect others (health) but unless it can be proved scientifically then it's nothing more than an unpleasant inconvenience and as such it shouldn't be banned. It's a fine line yes but are they looking at banning farting in public places.

I'm a non-smoker so you'd think I'd be in favour of a ban but not this way.

If they want to bad smoking in public places for health reasons then they should ban cigarettes in the publics interest. Any other way is hypocritcal.

Not really, it wasnt this government - or any government in this culture or with the knowledge of the damage they do - who made the decision to allow smoking. So taking action isnt actually hypocritical.

There are many things such as alcohol, fast food that are very bad for your health but will still remain legal, and rightly so. This is a giant leap towards discouraging smoking as many people who do smoke either started, or mainly get through the bulk of their smoking, socially.

The full effects may take several years, even decades to filter through but it's the right choice imo.

A straight ban on cigarettes would cause uproar, all those people who are addicted and suddenly cut off....just not feasible, i mean look at some of the protests on this thread already about infringing on rights and choice. Needs to be a culture change first.