norton65ca

Most Canadians I know don't know about relegation, don't know there are four tiers, have never heard of a good eighty percent of the teams and are often astonished when I tell them there are over nine pro teams in London. When I mentioned last week to a colleague that there were 92 teams in the league he was astonished.

question 1: not many question 2: about the same number to be honest, English footie isn't on many Canadians radar. How many English people know how many Canadian based teams there are in the NHL?

the civilized world is moving on and it's time for the stick in the muds to move with it. the prohibitions and fears are rooted in cultural attitudes shaped by RELIGION and lack of understanding. We have known that some have genetic predispositions to same sex attraction for some time now, only those who refuse to acknowledge this are really up in arms about this. I have radically changed my position over this over the years. If one doesn't like gay marriage, one had better not marry a gay person. Some traditional marriages are repulsively abusive and create monsters through faulty upbringing and repressive attitudes. The definition of "normal" needs to be re-evaluated in a big way. Bullying is and will be an issue but it is being stamped on everywhere you look with campaigns and public awareness initiatives. Once gay marriage enjoys broadbased support (1 generation away in my opinion) the bullying will dissipate, the example of mixed marriages being a good one that a previous poster brought up, one doesn't often see kids being bullied for being the progeny of a mixed couple nowadays does one? The word needs to move on and emerge from the bronze age religions and their built in prejudices pronto. Gay marriage isn't anywhere near the threat to the civilized world that dogmatic, monotheistic religion is with its legalism and archaic prohibitions.

I'm a Canadian, only went to Brum last Nov for the Norwich game for the first time in my life. I "picked" Aston Villa partly because of the fine name. I wouldn't have been half as interested if the club had been called Birmingham Villa. The club have tons of fans who've never set foot in Aston. TRS-T, you're talking out of your arse, quite frankly, and it is getting rather dull to hear you blather on about your cockamamie idea endlessly. No, they shouldn't have changed their name, it's just fine the way it is, they come from Aston, so they're called Aston Villa. What is so difficult to comprehend? strewth, it's like pulling teeth. I am convinced you have a variety of OCD man. cities towns villages hamlets what's the problem with being named after Aston, which is where the team comes from, I simply don't get it. As I said before, not one London team is named London anything. Gawd.

Hodgson can pick who he likes but I will be very disappointed indeed if he picks John Terry. I never, ever want to see him in an England shirt again. Loathsome individual, if we cannot find a quality defender to replace that POS, we are hard up, to say the least. Terry is a blight on the team and a pervasive troublemaker in the dressing room. If Roy chooses him, I'll lose a lot of respect for the man and I'd say he deserves every bit of trouble he gets for being so foolish.

great news. the forces arrayed against this progressive step (even it may have been a cynical bit of political posturing) are firmly rooted in fundamentalism. This reactionary mob will stop at nothing to ensure their particular version of morality is enforced. There are people on the fundie side of things that promote "theonomy" or Christian Dominionism, which if you look into, are really quite frightening, to say the least, and these nutters have the ear of very powerful and influential people in America. Look up Gary North for example, a leader in this movement. Theonomy presents a version of government founded on biblical principles, including such delightful things as the death penalty for blasphemy among other fascinating ideas. These people are serious.

lol, I'm also getting ready for a day at the office, but I'll be online this evening, birds are chirping here, it's early in the morning as I write this...

Big "if", isn't it? very. but from the inside, the perspective is quite different. Oh I could chat about this stuff for hours.

Hopefully you'll spare him that speech. No kidding, I'm very sorry to hear of your potential impending loss, but it matters not to your grandad at this point. Now, if the TRUTH was the other way round, yes, I'd be havin' a talk, since the consequences would be dire... but they're not.

CS Lewis once wrote something along the lines of: If there truly is a God, who is the maker of all the worlds, and he is intimately aware of us and further than that, is concerned and cares for us, then the only appropriate response to that reality is to adore and worship him. Too bad he was wrong

Hmm, for me it wasn't. In fact I found it quite liberating. It's getting much more like that now, truth be told, but you see the thing is that it was a process I was trying to control. My initial intention was to examine the faith with a view towards moving away from the traditional evangelical interpretation into perhaps a Universalist perspective. I wanted to get rid of the literalism and legalism that had infected my outlook and theology, and move into a perhaps more mystical approach. Things like the doctrines of predestination, heaven and hell, the Judgement Seat etc etc... I had huge issues with these things and the overall exclusivity and arrogance of the faith. What actually transpired was, after a few weeks of intense study and examination, a process that rapidly began to unravel in front of my eyes. I had attempted to keep the essence of this faith intact, but when the bible basically collapsed as an authoritative document, then all the central tenets of Christianity came into question; truly, if the bible cannot be realistically looked upon as the Word of God, an inspired document, then the whole thing pretty much goes into the skip. I hadn't expected to have the process come apart in my hands, and in a matter of one brutal evening, I lost my faith that there was a loving creator god, and all the other things that go along with that. Unless one has been behind the walls of aggressively proselytizing, apocalyptic, messianic religion, it must be very difficult to relate to this, I can see that. Since that time (not all that long ago to be honest) I do feel liberated as you note, It's amazing, but there are aspects to it that are hard to swallow, the idea of nothing beyond death is a little hard to get used to, and makes me feel decidedly uncomfortable, however it has impressed me with the intense need and desire to milk the time while I have it, so to speak.

From past threads that I've read on this forum about this topic (while I was a believer and since...), It's a pretty hostile crowd from the perspective of the believer, so I would think it would take a fairly enthusiastic and knowledgeable Christian to declare himself. (By knowledgeable, he'd have to be prepared both biblically speaking and specifically in apologetics.)

absolutely. Re: tolerance I believe that I would stand for any man's right to be able to freely worship whatever fantasy cartoon character he wishes too, to go to any church or temple he so desires. I am adamantly against "state religions". Although our culture teaches us that "Tolerance' is the greatest virtue, I believe it has its limits. I "tolerate" my fellow man's right to entertain benighted fantasies and call them a religion if he wants, but it does not follow that I 'tolerate" those fantasies themselves. I respect the man, not his fantasies. Monotheism is a blight upon the world we live in and is responsible for the death, torture, maiming and oppression of countless millions of humans. It must go if there is ever to be any peace on planet earth. I will scorn and fight against evangelical religion whenever I am able and I will mock its precepts, expose its lies and defy its proselytes till the day I die. I would not wish that kind of mental slavery on anyone. I am free, I'm not returning to the prison. Tolerance does not extend to tolerating dangerous and divisive lies and deceptions. Tolerate the man's right to deceive himself, but do not, no NEVER tolerate his message, it is pure poison to the human race.

mine was a Smith and Wesson.. ...I'll get my coat

I think those definitions are murky, but I'd say fundamentalism is far less inclusive, in that true fundie churches don't encourage dialogue with any other groups and tend to have deeper control over their members, in some cases frightening levels of control. Fundamentalism came about with the publication sometime in the late nineteenth century of a book of fundamentals, which delineated the basic truths for a Christian that were non negotiable, such as the physical resurrection, virgin birth, literal hell, total depravity etc etc. Evangelicalism is slightly more open and inter church dialogue is not frowned upon as much. there is a blending at the edges, I was evangelical but knew a few fundies.

MJ, it is only partially gullibility. In N America, evangelicalism is incredibly entrenched. This variety (and its scary cousin, fundamentalism) is part of the cultural landscape to such an extent that down in the south, EVERYONE in the town one might find oneself in, is a bible believing literalist, and atheism is looked upon with revulsion and horror. What you grow up with determines in many cases what you will end up following. European culture is another world entirely. As a reasonably well educated 19 year old, the supernatural aspects such as the resurrection for example, the miraculous bits, were actually not that hard to accept for me, and the resurrection was the last bastion to fall, primarily because I was deathly afraid in terms of eternity to reject it until the entire thing had become untenable in the extreme. I did always have a pretty big problem with the Genesis tale and towards the end took it metaphorically, but for quite some time I was creationist, but I had read a lot of their bs propaganda. It's not as easy to write off as lunacy as you might think, but again, I have a different perspective... The bible belt over here is thickly laid across the land. as far as "secular" christians go, an evangelical (and there are MILLIONS of them) would say they are no Christian at all.. and a fundie would write them off as hellfodder. Without a belief in the bible as "The word of god", and a fairly literal interpretation which would include the resurrection and ascension of christ in physical real terms, one isn't a christian but is only fooling oneself. This of course is bollocks, but for almost thirty years, I believed it. I do not consider myself ignorant, during this time I read philosophy and many other subjects extensively, but all the time through a christian lens. It colours everything. I do find myself shocked at how long it took me to finally reject the faith, but I chalk that down t o a profound unease and fear of an afterlife seperated from god in a hell of some kind. This is powerful stuff and deeply ingrains itself into a person over many years. Not all christians are ignorant bumkins, even if from the outside that may seem so, instead they are INDOCTRINATED which is another thing entirely. The church and christianity in general is a durable, immensely slick well packaged machine that will outlive you and I. Sad but so.

If anyone here has any questions that I might be able to answer, having been firmly on both sides of the fence, I'd be happy to oblige, and yes, you can scorn my idiocy for retaining that faith for so long if you wish... I was, albeit a very long time ago, one of those obnoxious street evangelists for a while. My faith had become rather more subdued, private and even hidden over the intervening decades since then. The final end concerned a final rejection of the resurrection, a rather heart rending series of moments. The death of faith, is never pleasant. It is hard, nay very hard, to realize everything you took to be real and true for many years, your entire worldview, is a complete crock of shit. Rather difficult to swallow that, for anyone.

I guess what I'm trying to say in agreement with BOFs initial few lines is that biblical dogma is very rarely the selling point, in fact for most ex Christians, it was studying the bible intensely to try to understand it which in the end killed their faith.

exactly (the first bit especially. truth be told, my conversion didn't involve a lot of bible reading , doctrinal examinations or dogma. It was about being 19, insecure, being accepted by kind and loving people and being gievn reasons for existence that at the time seemed very plausible and real, that there was a beneficient deity who was intimatley concerned with my life, destiny and well being, and that he had a plan for me. The doctrines and all the other stuff came a little later and that's when the problems began. Unfortunately, I was already well in by then, the ideas of judgement and eternal loss were well entrenched and it took 29 years until the cognitive dissonance and ass backwardsness of my inner life became just an intolerable mental noise, a great roaring howl that I simply couldn't stand. I finally decided to do something I thought I'd never do, and that was to take the old dusty box out of the closet I had locked up with all the troublesome, difficult stuff about believing in Christianity in the 21st century. I opened the box and spread all of the stuff out and minutely examined it all to try and make sense of it all. When I had finished this project a few weeks later, there was nothing left but a cold empty wind. No God, no saviour, no afterlife, nothing. I tell you, it took a bit of getting used to. may seem like insanity to some here but that's my tale, or some of it.

emphatically not so. I am living proof. I am an Ex Christian. At 19 years of age, 29 years ago, I did the whole born again Christian thing and was heavily invested in evangelical christianity. After many many years of struggle with huge issues concerning biblical canon, the authenticity of the gospels, the politics and history of the church and the character of the old testament Yahweh, I finally gave in and renounced the entire thing, and a good deal of the research I did in order to go through this process included a lot of online discussion and research. that's all. I don't want to necessarily go through the entire story with you all, but believe me, people who are heavily committed can indeed change their minds after many years. Just go to Ex Christian.net and read the "extimonies" that are there for evidence. Some harrowing stories there.

who's club is it then? Fecking awful decision IMHO. Shows a distinct lack of appreciation for heritage, the fans, and the proud history of an old club. All about marketing to those luck obsessed Chinese (who wield the power in Malaysia, not the Malays themselves.) If China is going to be calling the shots a lot from here on, and they start buying up a lot of English teams, we'll see a lot more of this... All Premier League teams in red in ten years lol!

Best of luck Emile, I've watched you plenty of times work your ass off for us, it didn't always work out, and gawd, you can't hit the broad side of a barn door if you tried, but thanks for your service (The 13 goals you scored for us in the 3 1/2 years you were here does sorta show you can occasionally hit barn doors).

This is heartbreaking stuff to be honest. Being one o' them "foreign" fans, and having only ever seen one game live, I was ecstatic when Bent scored against Norwich (How lucky am I to have come all the way from Canada and to catch one of only four home wins all season!). I haven't followed The Villa as long as many of you, around six seasons now I guess, so I've watched Lerner's tenure since pretty much the beginning, it's rise and fall. I have seen the aforementioned top players arrive, then leave. I was gutted when Barry left, then Milner, (my Milner long sleeved Villa top arrived shortly before he was sold grrrrrrr....) , Young and Downing. If Bent and Gabby end up splitting Villa, I'll be shattered, because in my view, if we lose those two, after already losing the previous four, it won't matter who manages us after McLeish leaves. Unless there's significant investment to replace these yawning gaps in our squad, we would probably go down in the next season anyways. When I watched Villa vs Norwich, Nov 5th, Gabby and Bent were in particularly good form, and it was a thrill to be there. If those two go without adequate replacements, we're foooooooked.

Make it stop, for God's sake make it stop....

"What's most perplexing is how this anti-football merchant is one of the top 20 highest paid managers in the World. " one of the comments on that article, surely this can't be true???