norton65ca

prior to Ronald Reagan, evangelicals and fundamentalists were apolitical, they didn't tend to sully themselves in such worldly things. With the advent of the moral majority and the republican tactic of mobilizing the fundamentalists over certain hot button "moral' issues such as abortion and "prayer in schools", all this changed. The initial strategy was astonishingly successful, but now the tail is beginning to wag the dog, as increasingly, the traditional republican must bend over backwards so far that his head is now firmly inserted into the toilet of fundamentalist whackiness, xenophobia, racism and conspiracy theory (birthers etc). The repubs have been ruthlessly hijacked by the extreme right and the strategy of using the fundamentalist loonie fringe to gain votes has derailed and now the loonies hold sway. The republican party risks annihilation as the more enlightened youth begins to become politically active and such backward and socially retrograde standpoints fail to attract.

This is the issue I was attempting to deal with while conversing with Julie. My issue is with the foundation of the whole damn thing, the bible. I will no longer accept this pile of documents as being a message from the divine, and therefore, quoting scriptures as justification for a position on something claimed to be historical ends the debate, quite frankly. When one comes up with statements like "Nimrod founded the first human City Babylon " or "Moses' account in Genesis" and proceeds to treat the accounts in the Pentateuch as if they were more than mythology, but actual historical truth, when there is little if any evidence that any of the events mentioned actually occurred, we are at an impasse. I have linked articles that demonstrate clearly that the evidence points to the idea that the Old Testament was collected and assembled at a far later period than it has traditionally been thought to have been, and that an elaborate pseudo history and mythology was created by a people in captivity with the assistance of a far more sophisticated civilization that they were immersed in. Basically, a people enslaved and humiliated created for themselves a collective mythology and history that elevated their status and gave them a national consciousness and identity. I believe it was survival of their culture which led to the assembling of the OT from folk stories, myths, songs and other fragments from who knows how many sources which led to the Old Testament. The Penateuch and the histories were the imaginative work of a number of people who adapted stories and tales into a cohesive narrative that in my view was co-ordinated in a relatively short period of time. There is zero evidence of anything written in the Hebrew tongue prior to 1000 BC. I am not here declaring unequivocally that the entire OT is a work of fiction, but there are enormous swathes of it that are, and to parse between the rest of the text to find that which may be history would be nigh on impossible. The Exodus, for example, a central focal point of the Old Testament narrative concerning the trials of the Israelites, is almost certainly completely fictional, there is not a shred of evidence whatsoever that a huge contingent of people (many thousands) were wandering and encamped in Sinai for forty years, and yet there is evidence of many smaller societies that had more of a fleeting impact on the lands around them that we have found from many centuries ago. The very fact that I mentioned earlier of towns and settlements mentioned within the text of Genesis that weren't founded until much later periods should indicate a late authorship. It's a no brainer. I no longer wish to belabour this particular point however, because Julie's position is very entrenched, and there is no point in engaging in a debate which would almost certainly become circular in the extreme. In addition, I had not intended to put myself in an antagonistic or hostile position. I respect her tenacity, although I fear her inability to consider non theistic sources and give them the same respect she holds for her biased evangelical sources will cripple her search for truth. I can, however, totally relate to her position; if there really is a devil, one must be alert for his wily tricks and schemes to deceive even the elect, if it were possible... Fortunately, although the human race faces a number of perilous challenges, the malevolent and cunning plots of a fallen angelic being that wishes the destruction and degradation of mankind isn't one of them.

Odd you say that Mike, I felt more of an outcast in church than I did at school (where most people were not Christians). So maybe it's fair to say that dealing with the emotions of religion withdrawal was easier for me than it was for most (de)converts. Do feel awkward around my family at times though, highly religious types them. While I'm inclined to agree with you that the creation of the universe probably had nothing to do with the supernatural, I can see the sense in this argument. What doesn't make sense is the idea that one specific god is for some reason the one that exists, rather than any of the other gazillion gods mankind has dreamt up, even though there is no evidence to suggest that this is so. Even more ludicrous is the practice of throwing irrelevant theology into the mix - believing that some man living 2000 years ago was simultaneously God and man, believing that bread and wine turn into flesh and blood when ingested at Mass, believing that one has to pray steadfastly five times a day in the direction of Mecca, all these have absolutely nothing to do with the first cause argument. It pisses me off whenever a theist uses this to facilely "support" not the idea of a first creator, but the entire edifice of his/her religion. Crazy shit. I had already spent a considerable period apart from regular church attendance, and even my contact with my old Christian friends had become somewhat sporadic. The psychological impact of realizing that the entire worldview was turned upside down was much more traumatic. I had often felt out of place and decidedly uncomfortable in any church but the "Street Ministry" I had had my initial salvation experience in. It was "Laid back" in the extreme for a Christian church. I agree very much with the last bit, the First cause issue should be considered as a totally separate thing to any specific theology. It's one thing to try to establish by argument a designer (deism?) and quite another to step from that into considering "revealed " religion of any kind, whether monotheistic, polytheistic or whatever.

^^^^^ this precisely. Cahill was subbed at 12 mins in the 2nd leg Barcelona game and Bosingwa came on for him. In the first match he was also used, but not until the 88th minute, coming on for Ramires.

God (if it exists at all) doesn't speak with men. There a number of competing books claiming to be revelations from the divine, and all of them (Torah, New Testament, Koran, Bhagavad Gita, Upanishads, Book of Mormon, JW bible etc) have holes so large one could drive a Gresley A4 4-6-2 steam locomotive through them. If god (if it exists) did speak with men, I would hope that he would have communicated a more comprehensively intelligible message than the one in the various books extant. I'll leave it at the golden rule, a universal moral directive which turns up in all religions, and in cultures where there isn't one. Do as you would be done by. Everything else is pure bronze age barbarism, superstition and fear mongering.

roflmao, just noticed this forum's unique transposition of the words "m*ssiah" with O'Neill in my post. Hilarious!

http://tinyurl.com/7hgnphd ... a few more nails for the coffin...

I would like to state that from where I stand, I am quite happy with the way the club is dealing with the managerial search, discretion is a good thing, it was inevitable that with our resident aircraft anorak, Thetrees, we were going to discover the plan, but the club has proceeded with care and a refreshingly adventurous approach. I am pleased thus far and I have a degree of confidence that the club has no desire to screw this appointment up. Still might go t*ts up but I'll wait and see. Much happier today than I was before the Norwich game, that's for sure. UTV!

Julie, I wish to stress at this point that personally, I am still myself examining first causes and the concept of a deity doesn't necessarily offend me, but my argument is with the "revealed" god of scripture. I no longer accept "Bible god" to be real and I no longer believe that god, if indeed he/she/it does exist, has revealed anything regarding his/her/its nature to man. I MIGHT be able to accept deism, but theism? no way. My principle objection to your worldview and theology is your insistence on relying on the Bible as a foundation for your belief system, rather than the existence of a creative force behind observable phenomena. I can no longer take seriously those who use scripture as a starting point for debate, you have to prove that scripture is an acceptable authority, and this can only be done through the use of circular logic.

Kiwi, from the same source: http://tinyurl.com/cnsp2df How come we're using a genealogy that isn't connected to Jesus? By that I mean if the genealogy in Matthew terminates in Joseph, then none of it can be used as a genealogical ancestry of Jesus (IF the scriptures represent him as GODS SON) because Joseph had nothing to do with Jesus conception!!!!!!!! If Jesus is the Son of God, then he emphatically isn't the Son of Joseph, isn't the Root of Jesse isn't descended from David, Abraham, Issac etc, and the genealogy in Matthew is absolutely irrelevant! Please someone explain this OBVIOUS lunacy to me! Biblical family trees always descend through the male line, father to son. My explanation? That when the Matthew gospel was written, the theology of Jesus being God's Son hadn't been developed yet, in other words, it was invented later and added. At the time of the writing of Matthew, Jesus was seen as a Messiah, not the Son of God as distinct from all saintly persons being "sons of god" metaphorically. This theological distinction and doctrine came about quite a bit later and was added. Jesus is NOT in the line of David.

Julie, here is the link you were looking for: http://tinyurl.com/cpwbnye Please read this, Julie, I am posting it for your enlightenment... First things first, The Bible isn't something one can stand on and use as evidence to support one's view of history, because it is not only factually unreliable, but it's a monumental fraud! This is what killed my faith Julie, the very foundational document from which EVERYTHING stems and upon which EVERYTHING builds on, is a crock! I had problems with it over the years, but now I am convinced that the entire thing, ironically, is nothing more than a house built on sand.

...and before anyone jumps on me and says" Holy crap dude, that was harsh", I wish to stress that there's, yes, a fair bit of post deconversion bitterness here to be sure, but I mean nothing personally by it. I have still a lot of Christian friends, and I love them very much. I just sincerely wish them all well but hope they will get free of the indoctrination and bs that is christianity. I also do understand that free thinking rationalism can be hard to come to terms with after many years of faith, as the realization that we are more than likely alone in the universe, and the idea that this is IT, one life only, make of it what you may, can be extremely uncomfortable for many people to deal with. I am not particularly thrilled with the idea that when I die that's it, but I am coming around and realizing it isn't as horrifying as it first appeared the night of my "faithdeath" if you will. Julie, I wish you well but I do encourage you to think a little outside the box and have a look at your religion from the outside, even if it seems impossible to do so.

Hislop's "Two Babylon's" is not a good source Julie. I used to own a copy. I left it on the front steps of a nearby church a while back shortly after deconverting. I see what you are setting up here to be honest, I didn't spend thirty years in the faith without being able to recognize a few things along the way. Link all world religions to wicked idolatrous Mystery Babylon except for the one you follow. All are lost except the chosen few (how many was it again? 144,000? that's kinda gross really isn't it? ;-) the Jewish religion is the true foundation and the the Jehovah's Witness cult is the only modern descendant which held on to the true faith without letting it get sullied by Babylonian/Romish idolatry? Isn't that how it goes? I'll go one further and it makes more sense. They're ALL descended from the same roots Julie, all of 'em, including the bible, the Jewish religion, The Jehovah's Witnesses, every goldarned one of 'em. There isn't a pure source to be found. I read a good chunk of that "All roads lead to Babylon" thread, gave me a headache after a while. I find it painful these days to read religious claptrap disguised as pseudoscience, mixed with a bit of historical data misinterpreted, some mumbojumbo and a lot of biblical mythology. The thread has some interesting material on it, some of which is indeed of historical value, but it is mixed with pure bogswirl to leaven the mix. I have no debate as to the age of civilisation or the antiquity of ancient artifacts, I find true archaeology fascinating, but I do have issue with folks who try to support bronze age mythologies as historical fact using the bible as a foundation. Mythology can lead us all into amazing insights into our common origins and the ways our ancestors thought and believed. Mythology can give us all incredible insights into the origins of religion as well, and your contention that "almost" (your distinction, not mine) all religions have a common root, I have no argument with that conclusion, with the caveat that I will not stop at "almost". There is no true faith, there is no true religion, they are all man made and they all have the same root in ancient history. Step out of your biblical prison and, if you find ancient history fascinating, then by all means study it and learn for it is amazing indeed, but PLEASE don't distort history and archaeology in order to provide a framework to justify your belief in an nineteenth century apocalyptic cult that preaches it has an exclusive hold on truth because, unlike in the "AboveTopSecret" website, cosmic fantasy stories will not be respected here, rather they will be examined and rejected, as being the products of circular logic, indoctrination and bibliolatry.. I completely support your right to worship whatever deity you desire to, and I believe that is a fundamental human right (hopefully one day religion will be gone from the earth and the whole issue will be moot, but until such a blessed time arrives...) I defend any man's right to have freedom of worship... HOWEVER, I also reserve the right for myself to defend our civilization from these benighted fantasies that threaten our planets' survival, endanger the lives of millions by their deceptive power and influence, and their divisive nature. I reserve the right to myself to expose, diminish and reduce the influence of the religion you serve, and all others until they are eradicated from the earth, for the sake of my grandchildren. This is what tolerance means to me. I tolerate your right to believe lies, but I do not, nor will I ever, tolerate the lies themselves. I'm sorry if you find this offensive, but I consider religion to be the enemy of the progress of the human species, and the root of the most profoundly destructive forces that have ever been unleashed on the planet. I blame religion, all religion, for the deaths of countless millions of innocent people, and the suffering of millions more. I despise the god of the bible, this capricious, hateful, genocidal, vindictive monster, this murderous, bloodthirsty, jealous and spiteful piece of shit that treads under foot the flesh and blood of the poor and ignorant. Jahweh is a brutal enabler of child rape and the slaughterer of innocents. Thankfully, he is a mythological figure, but the power invoked in his miserable name still creates chaos , warfare, bloodshed and misery all over the world. F*ck Jahweh, F*ck the church, f*ck the priests, the cardinals, the whole disgusting edifice, all its variants, all the schismatic cults and offshoots and f*ck the bible. Hey, if you can claim that all other religions are Baylonian mystery cults, idolatrous and rooted in sacrificing babies, worshiping "satan" Moloch, Baal and so on, many might get offended by that, well, please don't plead not to be offended by my words then, it takes two to tango. That's one of my beefs with all the various pseudo Xtian groups both mainstream and completely out to lunch cultic left field: They're all so bloody exclusive. Your either one of us or against us and with the horned one and you're going to be the main course in the great cosmic post apocalyptic barbeque at the end of it all. Utter tripe of course but it sure is easier to get people to kill for you if you can convince them that their neighbours are worshipers of old slewfoot...

If you have a look at the thread from Above Top Secret about All Roads Lead to Babylon... actually shows that essay isn't true. It appears that Sumerian beleifs can be traced all the way back to Nimrod & his family. Funnily enough the Hancock Museum have been debtaing this very subject on Facebook. Many archeologists are saying that the roots of civilisation can now be traced back to Ancient Anatolia not the fertile crescent. This is the area under the Black Sea which runs from the borders of Armenia, through Turkey to Iraq & Syria. If you are at all interested I watched a very good video on You Tube last year of a lecture given by Paul James Griffiths who has spent the last 22 years researching the origins of mankind's ancestory using a historical perspective. He too traces it back to it's roots around Gobekli Tepe area "shows that that essay isn't true"??? Is that all you've got??? I linked an extensive loooong essay written by someone with deep knowledge of the subject and all you can say is your thread on the "above top secret" UFO/Conspiracy theory website proves it isn't true? words fail me. I'd be willing to bet you didn't read a single paragraph of what I linked. Why on earth would you reference Nimrod and his family when the bible you read isn't a reliable reference to anything historical whatsoever? If I wish to understand history, the last place I would look is in the bible, written almost two thousand years later than it was made out to be, a faked record of a non existent history of a two bit tribe who stole, borrowed and copied everything in their collective mythology from those around them. Why would one reference a book of mythological characters when trying to understand history? Moses didn't write the Pentateuch, and no one in the third millenia BC wrote anything in what we know as the bible, it was all written around the time of the Babylonian exile. The Pentateuch could never have been written in the time it claims to be, because there are cities and towns mentioned in it which didn't exist for another thousand years or more. If you haven't the decency to read the link I sent, don't comment on it. UFO websites! bwahahahahahahaha

so excited about this. Lambert and Rodgers obviously aren't leaving, Martinez has held Wigan up by the skin of their teeth several yrs running but what of it? I think this MAY turn out to be a masterstroke, and the footie will be easier on the eyes. Great choice RL, this may very well redeem the last year's errors. Fantastic

Jarpie, neither do I, the feed is running on the webpage linked a few pgs back

I think there's not a Villatalk member who doesn't also have that Twitter feed open as well ;-)

not shown up @ training field where coaching staff are present according to above linked twitter feed

it really is a bit of a roller coaster ride isn't it this following Villa thing? rather excited now. Honestly, would rather OGS than Lambert now. Good times.

That is the one Not yet. :!: :!: :nod: Arise from your slumber TT to speak........... :notworthy: Morning.... ...i suspect that OGS will be departing around 0830BST I've been sitting at this computer for over a year of abject misery now, and let me tell you, after seeing the above posts, I must say it's been by far the best day I've spent on Villatalk in a looooooooooooong time indeed!!! UTV!!!

Julie, if you look at a link I posted about five pages back to OzVillan. it links to an essay on the origins of the Genesis myth and where it originated. It is stolen, shamelessly straight from Babylonian/Assyrian mythology. There is nothing original about the Jewish religion, they borrowed it all from other neighborhood religions.

http://tinyurl.com/5z5kcz "Oh I say, did someone say Mattress to Mr. Lambert? Now I have to stand in the tea chest and sing..." sorry, couldn't resist...

...as it is written, so shall it be ;-)

Oh dear, now I have to go back and re edit again... ;-) nah, I'll not bother. I do understand when someone for example puts an ebay link on to a forum, those links are loooooooooong... nuance, humour and subtlety are anathema to online communication ;-) Hard to know who's serious and who's not sometimes... :-)