Could Noah's Ark hold all the animals?

[Kiwivillan]

Where in the story of creation i.e. Genesis does it say God created Lucifer?

The Bible doesn't say God created Lucifer.. he created an angel that was perfect but had free will. This angel turned himself into

Satan or the Devil by opposing and slandering God.

Lucifer actually translates as light bearer or shining one and the scripture at (Isaiah 14:12) . . ."O how you have fallen from heaven, you shining one, son of the dawn! How you have been cut down to the earth, you who were disabling the nations!" relates that Satan was a fallen angel who turned himself into God's enemy - both he and his invisible organisation who are misleading the nations.

Where in Genesis does it say he created this angel?

Isaiah is talking about a fallen Babylonian king, not a fallen angel actually, but you knew that right?

[bickster]

If this Jesus bloke did actually exist and lets face it, if he did he was an early member of the SWP or something, how on earth did his death save me and how could his dying, roughly 1950 years before I'd had a chance to "sin" be for my sins.

Anyway why aren't small heath the best supported team in the world?

[Kiwivillan]

It says he created Angels...Lucifer was an angel.

Psalm 104.Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

Psalms is the 19th book of the bible. Where does it say he created the devil/angels in the creation story?

Isaiah is not talking about an angel but you would no that if you had properly read, researched and understood the bible.

Don't tell me you make the mistake of taking metaphors in the bible literally?

[steaknchips]

Bickster,

Because its not you...Its mankind.

We were God's creation and he loves us...Evil put sin into mankind..The only wage for sin is death. God had to(well he didnt have to but he loves his creation) come to earth as a man and die to fulfill that wage and save his creation.

[CrackpotForeigner]

I forgot to mention that in heaven you can also go hiking, or pony trekking, or just stay home and watch TV if you prefer.

[steaknchips]

It says he created Angels...Lucifer was an angel.

Psalm 104.Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

Psalms is the 19th book of the bible. Where does it say he created the devil/angels in the creation story?

Isaiah is not talking about an angel but you would no that if you had properly read, researched and understood the bible.

Don't tell me you make the mistake of taking metaphors in the bible literally?

Why does it have to be mentioned in the creation story for mankind?

[bickster]

Bickster,

Because its not you...Its mankind.

We were God's creation and he loves us...Evil put sin into mankind..The only wage for sin is death. God had to(well he didnt have to but he loves his creation) come to earth as a man and die to fulfill that wage and save his creation.

So it was a grand failure then? Mankind is still pretty sinful. I thought he was infallible?

[JulieB]

You said that JR had personally written a letter to Hitler!!

And he did! In 1933! Go and look it up! Then pretend that it doesn't mean what it says!

Seriously Julie, I don't know what more you have to read to convince you that the sect you follow are nothing but mentally unstable lunatics.

In 1940, your leader wrote a booklet predicting that Nazis and Catholics would invade Switzerland, smash the British Empire, win the war and take over most of the world, shortly after which Armageddon would begin. Well of course they didn't do any of that, and 70 years later we're still waiting for the end of days.

Can't you see that what you follow is absolutely, completely and utterly deranged? Not a single word of what they say is true! It's a cult that tells lies, then when they get found out, they use more lies to cover their tracks. Get out while you still have a slim hold on reality and enjoy the rest of your life. There seem to be several websites out there to help with this, I suggest looking at one asap.

Oh right then.. so you've now changed tack from saying that Jehovah's Witnesses were Nazi sympathises then?!!

That letter in 1933 is the exact opposite of what you said it was.. it was a letter denouncing Hitler and there is a picture of it reprinted in the Awake 1998.

Judge Rutherford might have said things that later changed but by 1942 after his death JWs had the correct understanding of what would happen including that the League of Nations would arise stronger and would be in existence after WW2 for some time.

He was humble enough to admit he didn't have all the answers and he had made mistakes and made statements he shouldn't have - he was apparently a very forthright man whose tongue got himself into lots of trouble...

just like the Bible calls some of the Apostles sons of thunder... the Bible says even the Disciples were far from perfect even when they were with Jesus! At one time he had to intercede because they were discussing who was the greatest of them. Which was exaclty the opposite of humility and showing self sacrifice.

Though widely known as Judge Rutherford, he was at heart a humble man. For example, he once made some dogmatic statements as to what Christians could expect in 1925. When events failed to support his expectations, he humbly told the Brooklyn Bethel family that he had made a fool of himself. An anointed Christian who had quite close association with him testified that time and again he heard Brother Rutherford apologize in the spirit of Matthew 5:23, 24, both in public and in private, for having hurt a fellow Christian by some ill-advised expression. It takes humility for one in a position of authority to apologize to those who are in subjection to him. Brother Rutherford set a fine example for all overseers, whether in a congregation, in the traveling work, or in one of the Society’s branches.

Nathan H Knorr gave a speech in 1942 entitled "Peace can it Last" .....where he set out powerful evidence from Revelation 17:8 that World War II, which was then raging, would not lead into Armageddon, as some thought, but that the war would end and a period of peace would set in. There was still work to be done in proclaiming God’s Kingdom.

The Watchtower have changed their understandings of Scripture and they have said many times that it may change again as world conditions alter. They have never claimed to be infallible. In 1914 many JWs thought that Armageddon would happen straight away. And in 1975 too many falsely proclaimed that that date would bring Armageddon.

Are Atheists perfect? No certainly not... does science often say things that change or turn out to be inaccurate - YES. Does it stop you being an Atheist - NO and does it stop you beleiving in Science - NO.

Have I seen JWs behave badly and not as they should at all - YES...

Do I think the Watchtower is infallible - NO. Will any of that stop me being a Jehovah's Witness - NO certainly NOT!

[Kiwivillan]

It says he created Angels...Lucifer was an angel.

Psalm 104.Who maketh his angels spirits; his ministers a flaming fire:

Psalms is the 19th book of the bible. Where does it say he created the devil/angels in the creation story?

Isaiah is not talking about an angel but you would no that if you had properly read, researched and understood the bible.

Don't tell me you make the mistake of taking metaphors in the bible literally?

Why does it have to be mentioned in the creation story for mankind?

I think it's fundamentally important to the narrative but if you want to gloss over it that says an awful lot about you.

[CrackpotForeigner]

Plus also, I forgot to mention that the food in heaven is made by the angels, so chocolate and other foodstuffs taste 40 X better than they do on Earth, and there's no set meal time, so you can just have whatever you want at any time and also it's available instantly. You only have to THINK what you want and it's availably straight away and iTunes is free as well.

[DiegoD]

Bickster,

Because its not you...Its mankind.

We were God's creation and he loves us...Evil put sin into mankind..The only wage for sin is death. God had to(well he didnt have to but he loves his creation) come to earth as a man and die to fulfill that wage and save his creation.

Read what you just wrote, its retarded. Just plain stupid, God goes about things in a really stupid way for an all knowing being.

I really hope you are trolling SnC, it makes me sad that people could actually be as brainwashed/stupid as you are.

[CrackpotForeigner]

Also, in heaven you can also meet your dead pets and loved ones, even if they died a really really long time ago. Not sure how long exactly, but Eternity would be my guess. Maybe shorter for pets, though. Not sure.

[Ponky]

Well I'm glad I hopped off this thread at Page 3.

51 pages of people having a debate about a topic on which both sides will never change their minds.

This could rage on for, dare I say it, an eternity...

[Risso]

That letter in 1933 is the exact opposite of what you said it was.. it was a letter denouncing Hitler and there is a picture of it reprinted in the Awake 1998.

You're just making things up as you go and making yourself look even more stupid. First you say there was no letter. then there only one letter in 1934. Now you agree that there was one in 1933, which was this:

Dear Reichskanzler,

on June 25, 1933, at the Sporthalle Wilmersdorf in Berlin there was a conference of appx. 5,000 Bible Researchers (Jehovah's Witnesses), representing several millions of Germans who are friends and followers of this movements for many years. Purpose of this conference, which was attended by representatives of all bible students communities of Germany, was to find ways and means to inform the Reichskanzler, as well as other high officials of the German Reich and the governments of its individual countries of the following:

In several parts of the country, actions were taken against a corporation of serious Christian men and women who are standing on the foundation of positive Christianity. Such actions can only described as the persecution of Christians by other Christians, since the accusations - which have led to these actions against us - primarily are of clerical, especially catholic origin and untrue.

We are absolutely convinced of the impartiality of the government officials dealing with this situation. Yet we conclude that the contents of our literature and the purpose of our movement are largely misinterpreted due to the accusations which are brought up against us by our religious opposers and which might result in a prejudiced viewpoint. This might also be due to the amount of our literature and the high demand put upon the respective officials.

For this reason the things discussed at the conference were put down as a declaration of the Watchtower Bible and Tract Society, in order to pro vide you, Mr. Reichskanzler, as well as the high officials of the German Reich and its countries, with a document of the fact that the Bible Re searchers of Germany only have one goal in their work, namely to lead people back to God and to be witnesses of the Name of Jehovah, the most high, the father of our Lord and redeemer Jesus Christ.

We are convinced that you, Mr. Reichskanzler, will not have such activities disturbed. The communities of the Bible Researchers of Germany and their members are generally known as defenders of respect of the Most High and zealous students of the bible. Local police officials will need to testify to the fact that Bible Researchers have to be counted among elements of the country and ist people who are known for their love and support of oder. There sole mission is to draw the hearts of humans to God.

The Watchtower Bible and Tract Society (located in Magdeburg/Germany) is the organizing center of the mission of the Bible Researchers.

The Brooklyn headquarter of the Watchtower Society is pro German in an exemplary way and has been so for many years. For that reason, in 1918, the president of the Society and seven members of the board of directors were sentenced to 80 years in prison, because the president refused to use two of the magazines published in America under his direction for war propaganda against Germany. These two magazines, "The Watchtower" and "Bible Student" were the only magazines in America which refused to engage in anti-German propaganda and for that reason were prohibited and suppressed in America during the war.

In the very same manner, in course of the recent months the board of directors of our Society not only refused to engage in propaganda against Germany, but has even taken a position against it. The enclosed declaration underlines this fact and emphasizes that the people leading in such propaganda (Jewish businessmen and catholics) also are the most rigorous persecutors of the work of our Society and ist board of directors. This and other statements of the declaration are meant to re pudiate the slanderous accusation, that Bible Researchers are supported by the Jews.

The conference of five thousand delegates received the statement of the governor in Magdeburg with great satisfaction, who declared that it can not be proven that there is any relationship between the Bible Researchers and Communists or Marxists, as it was stated by our religious opposers (which means that such a statement is also nothing but slander). A press report in the Magdeburger Tageszeitung, issue 104, dated May 5, 1933, reads as follows:

A declaration of the government concerning the occupation of the Bible Researcher building: The press department of the government issued the following information: "Occupation of the property of the Society of Serious Bible Researchers" in Magdeburg was lifted on April 29, since no material to support the claim of communist activities could be found."

Another report in the Magdeburger Tageszeitung, issue 102, dated May 3, 199, reads:

The office of the Bible Researchers Society informed us that the actions taken against the Watchtower Society and the Bible Researchers Society, were abolished. All property was returned, since a comprehensive search led to the result that nothing can be held against this Society neither as far as political nor as criminal activities are concerned. It was also concluded that both Societies are of an absolutely un-political and strictly religious nature. On request, the government confirmed the correctness of these statements.

The conference of five thousand delegates emphasized that according to this state of affairs it considered it beneath ist dignity to even defend itself against any disparaging accusations of Marxist or even Communist activites. Such disproved slander of our religious opposers undoubtedly carry the sign of religious competition. Their goal is to stifle an honest warner with the ugly means of slander instead of using the word of God.

The conference of five thousand delegates also noted - as is expressed in the declaration - that the Bible Researchers of Germany are fighting for the very same high ethical goals and ideals which also the national government of the German Reich proclaimed respecting the relationship of humans to God, namels: honesty of the created being towards its creator.

The conference came to the conclusion that there are no contradictions when it comes to the relationship between the Bible Researchers of Germany to the national government of the German Reich. To the contrary, referring to the purely religious and unpolitical goals and efforts of the Bible Researchers, it can be said that these are in full agreement with the identical goals of the national government of the German Reich.

Based upon the supposedly strong language of our literature, some of our books were banned. The conference of the five thousand delegates pointed to the fact that the contents of the books which were criticized, only refers to the situation and actions within the Anglo-American world power - especially England - which is responsible for the League of Nations and its contracts and burdons imposed upon Germany. What is written in our literature - no matter whether from a financial or political point of view - is only directed towards the suppressors of the German people and their country, but by no means refers to Germany itself, which is trying hard to fight against the imposed burdens. Therefore the ban imposed upon these books is completely unjustified.

In some parts of the country Bible Researchers are even prohibited to meet for prayer and church service and for many weeks are hoping for a solution of this situation which is stifling their religious lives. The follow ing was expressed about this situation:

We want to continue to live up to the prohibition imposed upon us, for we are confident that Mr. Reichskanzler and the high government officials will lift this ban - which forces tens of thousands of Christian men and women to a martyrdom which can only be compared to that of the first Christians - after they have gained an understanding of the real situation.

Finally, the conference of the five thousand delegates expressed that both Bible Researchers and Watchtower Organization stand for keeping up order and security within the state, as well as furthering the primary high ideals of the national government in the field of religion. The afore mentioned, as well as the enclosed declaration are meant as a brief information directed to both Mr. Reichskanzler as leader of the people and all the other high government officials of the German Reich.

The enclosed declaration was read by the secretary to the five thousand delegates of the conference of the Bible Researchers. It was approved unanimously and it was decided to present one copy each together with this report of the conference to Mr. Reichskanzler and all the other high government officials of the Reich and its countries.

This we want to do herewith and ask that the following request, which is also stated in the declaration, will be received with favour:

Namely that a commission from our midst is given the chance to person ally explain the true situation either to Mr. Reichskanzler himself or to the minister of internal affairs. Alternatively, we ask Mr. Reichskanzler to appoint a commission of men who do not have any religious prejudice against us - men who do not have professional religious interests but are solely interested to comply to the just principles as they were set up by the Reichskanzler himself - to investigate our situation impartially. The principles mentioned, refer to paragraph 24 of the program of the National Socialistic German Party of Workers, which reads:

"We demand the freedom of all religious denominations within the state, as far as they do not endanger the state itself or violate the moral values of the German race.

The party as such represents the viewpoint of positive Christianity without being attached to any particular denomination. It fights against the Jewish-materialistic spirit inside and outside of us and is convinced that any recovery of the German people can only take place from the inside out."

We are fully convinced that, once we have been judged impartially, based firstly upon God's word and secondly upon the above mentioned paragraphs, the national government of Germany will find no reason to prevent us from our church services and missionary activities.

We are looking forward to your kind approval, which we hope to receive soon, and want to assure our highest respect to you, honorable Mr. Reichskanzler.

Yours faithfully

Watch Tower Bible and Tract Society Magdeburg

Which part of that denounces Hitler exactly? It's a crawling attempt at appeasement which appeared to backfire spectacularly.

[Kiwivillan]

Is there a prequel to the bible which talks about the rad time God had with the angels before he created everything?

[Ponky]

Is there a prequel to the bible which talks about the rad time God had with the angels before he created everything?

Yeah, I think that was one of Dan Brown's earlier novels...

[CrackpotForeigner]

Well I'm glad I hopped off this thread at Page 3.

51 pages of people having a debate about a topic on which both sides will never change their minds.

This could rage on for, dare I say it, an eternity...

This thread is the BEST. Yeah some of the arguments are repeated now and then, but a lot of people have been quoting the actual Word of God, if you know where to look. Plus I have added a few facts about heavenly life here and there just to make it even more interesting.

[NowDoINotLikeThat]

Well I'm glad I hopped off this thread at Page 3.

51 pages of people having a debate about a topic on which both sides will never change their minds.

This could rage on for, dare I say it, an eternity...

Youve missed fair bit ...

Now have steaknchips alluding to or implying that Mohamed is the false prophet .

Oh you probably missed the bit where JulieB very briefly talked of the Nephilim (giants / halfman halfgods)

[JulieB]

Where in the story of creation i.e. Genesis does it say God created Lucifer?

The Bible doesn't say God created Lucifer.. he created an angel that was perfect but had free will. This angel turned himself into

Satan or the Devil by opposing and slandering God.

Lucifer actually translates as light bearer or shining one and the scripture at (Isaiah 14:12) . . ."O how you have fallen from heaven, you shining one, son of the dawn! How you have been cut down to the earth, you who were disabling the nations!" relates that Satan was a fallen angel who turned himself into God's enemy - both he and his invisible organisation who are misleading the nations.

Where in Genesis does it say he created this angel?

Isaiah is talking about a fallen Babylonian king, not a fallen angel actually, but you knew that right?

Actually you are right. That scripture in Isaiah is referring to the King of Babylon in this instance with a reference to Satan.

Satan made himself attractive-looking. Satan’s attitude was reflected in the dynasty and brilliant worldly position taken by “the king of Babylon,” to whom the terms “shining one” and “Lucifer” were aptly given.

As regards Satan...

(Job 1:6) 6 Now it came to be the day when the sons of the [true] God entered to take their station before Jehovah, and even Satan proceeded to enter right among them.

Therefore Satan was a son of the true God... in the heavens

The Bible states that Jehovah created the angels before he created the Earth as they congratulated him and his co worker Jesus who was the firstborn of Creation for Earth's beauty.

(Job 38:4-7) 4 Where did you happen to be when I founded the earth? Tell [me], if you do know understanding.  5 Who set its measurements, in case you know, Or who stretched out upon it the measuring line?  6 Into what have its socket pedestals been sunk down, Or who laid its cornerstone,  7 When the morning stars joyfully cried out together, And all the sons of God began shouting in applause?

He wasn't created as evil.. ALL of the sons of God were created perfect but with free will.

(Deuteronomy 32:4-5) 4 The Rock, perfect is his activity, For all his ways are justice. A God of faithfulness, with whom there is no injustice; Righteous and upright is he.  5 They have acted ruinously on their own part; They are not his children, the defect is their own.. . .

Jesus showed the change in the angel who turned himself into the devil or Satan. He wasn't always that way because Jesus mentioned he did not "stand fast in the truth"... which implies a state that once was but was no more.

(John 8:44) . . .That one was a manslayer when he began, and he did not stand fast in the truth, because truth is not in him. When he speaks the lie, he speaks according to his own disposition, because he is a liar and the father of [the lie]. . .

The Bible mentions that other sons of the true God or angels followed Satan in turning against God.

(Genesis 6:2) . . 

.then the sons of the [true] God began to notice the daughters of men, that they were good-looking; and they went taking wives for themselves, namely, all whom they chose.

(2 Peter 2:4) .

 . .Certainly if God did not hold back from punishing the angels that sinned,. . .

[Risso]

And the fact that apparently the JWs predicted that the Allies would win the war because it says in one of the books of the bible, except their leader at the time predicted that the Germans would win and would take over the earth, and Armageddon would start soon after. All of which is of course, complete cobblers.