Con Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 We haven't scored from his key passes that were corners and we haven't scored from his key passes that were not corners. Perhaps the quality of these key passes might not be what you're pretending to think they are? Opta don't measure quality. Key pass is the measure of quality. There is failed pass, completed pass, and key pass. Also you forget Bannan's assist against Newcastle, whipped in from the left. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NurembergVillan Posted January 28, 2013 Moderator Share Posted January 28, 2013 Key pass is the measure of quality. No it's not, it's the type of pass made. He could play a through ball for Agbonlahor but if he gets the angle wrong and sends him wide it stands less chance of becoming an assist. It'll count as a "key pass" even if it's a "shit pass". Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Is it like a Khyber Pass? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 No it's not, it's the type of pass made. He could play a through ball for Agbonlahor but if he gets the angle wrong and sends him wide it stands less chance of becoming an assist. It'll count as a "key pass" even if it's a "shit pass". You're right, it is technically possible to mis-kick and send someone through on goal completely by accident and it registering as a key pass - but the argument is convoluted if you're saying those account for Bannan's high number of key passes. The counting method applies to all players equally, they all have an equal chance of having a lucky pass. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NurembergVillan Posted January 28, 2013 Moderator Share Posted January 28, 2013 I didn't say mis-kick though did I? Or lucky. I said if he gets the angle wrong, say if Gabby needs it playing straight and the pass sends him wide. Or if it's just behind him and he has to check his run allowing the defender to catch him. These are still "key passes" but in reality are bad passes, otherwise they'd have had more chance of being an assist. That's the trouble with stats - as I said before, they need context. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 I didn't say mis-kick though did I? Or lucky. A mis-kick is very similar, something else that technically could be included in the key pass statistic. I said if he gets the angle wrong, say if Gabby needs it playing straight and the pass sends him wide. Or if it's just behind him and he has to check his run allowing the defender to catch him. This applies to every player equally. It's a convoluted argument to say there are flaws with all Bannan's key passes. The flaws might be with the players who are receiving the pass. These are still "key passes" but in reality are bad passes, otherwise they'd have had more chance of being an assist. That's the trouble with stats - as I said before, they need context. Key pass is a relevant statistic if it is compiled equally across players, so the rules are the same and they can be compared. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dickyhell Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Just add Bannan to the list of not quite good enough, he might be one day. There is no way that he should be getting as much gme time as he is this season. I cant see how being played as much in a poor team is helping him. We can say that for quite a few of them, collectively not good enough and being harmed by being in a team that isnt good enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NurembergVillan Posted January 28, 2013 Moderator Share Posted January 28, 2013 Key pass is a relevant statistic if it is compiled equally across players, so the rules are the same and they can be compared. Not really. If all his key passes give the receiving player less chance of scoring than, say, Steven Gerrard's key passes. Stats without context are just numbers. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaAndLoyal Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 On Friday night we were playing really badly and then Bannan came on from where we went from the bad to the ridiculous. The thing that riles me is the way, when he gets the ball, he drops either shoulder so dramatically. For a split second you could be watching Iniesta - and then he plays the shittest 'pass' you could ever imagine. Awful footballer and a cretin of a man, by all accounts.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 Not really. If all his key passes give the receiving player less chance of scoring than, say, Steven Gerrard's key passes. Assertions without facts ... bullshit. Your argument is convoluted and you've not proved it is significant enough to prevent us making accurate comparisons. Moreover, if you decide not to take the stat "as is" for your reason, I can name many other reasons to take into account ... the quality of the grass, the weather, as well as how good the receiving striker is etc can all affect key pass rate "in theory". Stats without context are just numbers. Have not and would not deny that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NurembergVillan Posted January 28, 2013 Moderator Share Posted January 28, 2013 I can name many other reasons to take into account ... the quality of the grass, the weather, as well as how good the receiving striker is etc can all affect key pass rate "in theory". So we agree then? These stats prove nothing as there are too many flaws and variables to provide like for like comparisons between any two players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 (edited) So we agree then? These stats prove nothing as there are too many flaws and variables to provide like for like comparisons between any two players. No, of course not. Let's not get too philosophical here... ... just because reality isn't always totally clear, doesn't mean there isn't fact there. when you tune the analogue radio you have to go through a lot of fuzz to get the signal. when you are close to the signal but not tuned in exactly, you can still receive the message. we're getting a message through these stats even though we're not exactly tuned in. not claiming there are no errors in the data or that the data could not be compiled in a much more rigorous way to your liking. Edited January 28, 2013 by Con Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NurembergVillan Posted January 28, 2013 Moderator Share Posted January 28, 2013 For a possession player Bannan's 80% pass accuracy is - to be honest - woeful. He's criticised for his crosses, which he is best in the PL at, but the simple pass which can be the staple of his footballing career is letting him down. I've got to hand it to you, you're prepared to try to have a reasonable argument, even if I believe the basis for it is flawed. That stat above though is woeful. His average pass length is also high at 24m. Trying too hard or being Mr Hollywood? Those two stats in isolation suggest he tries too many long balls that don't find the target. And that's one of the reasons the fans can't take to him. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 I've got to hand it to you, you're prepared to try to have a reasonable argument, even if I believe the basis for it is flawed. That stat above though is woeful. It needs to be improved in context, his passes aren't cheap ones. A lot of high pass % players get a high pass % by passing backward 45% time. This includes Delph and El Ahmadi. Bannan, like Westwood, passes forward 65% of the time, although Westwood has an 85% pass rate to Bannan's 80%. His average pass length is also high at 24m. Trying too hard or being Mr Hollywood? No. The distance from the corner flag to the penalty spot is 34m and Bannan takes the corners. Westwood's average long ball is 41m, Bannan's is 40m, so technically Westwood is the more Hollywood of the two. http://www.squawka.com/ Those two stats in isolation suggest he tries too many long balls that don't find the target. And that's one of the reasons the fans can't take to him. His long ball accuracy can improve but it is better or comparable to other PL players, such as Morrison at WBA, Whelan at Stoke, Larsson at Sunderland, and others. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
drat01 Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 For the love of god, what is it with these stats? The simple stats are that Villa have lost to a 4th div side followed by another lower league side. We have suffered a record defeat, we have scored a pitiful amount of goals and conceded far too many. Our midfield has been piss poor and Bannan has been very poor throughout the year. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Con Posted January 28, 2013 Share Posted January 28, 2013 For the love of god, what is it with these stats? The simple stats are that Villa have lost to a 4th div side followed by another lower league side. We have suffered a record defeat, we have scored a pitiful amount of goals and conceded far too many. Our midfield has been piss poor and Bannan has been very poor throughout the year. It terms of passing, he might have been "very poor throughout the year" but that standard is still better than many other PL players. There used to be the idea Bannan was "Championship - at best"... the statistics don't show that. And if you think Bannan's too lightweight for the Premier League, the Championship is arguably even more physical, so how would he handle that? You might as well tell him to give up football. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
VillaAndLoyal Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Give up football? That's the best idea you've had yet... Bannan is the one player, actually alongside Stephen Ireland, who is clearly disliked by a majority on the terraces and there is still very much a consensus that he is playing in a division above his ability. There is no 'used to be' about it. No stats have changed anything, I've watched him with my own eyes in almost every game this season and he's total crap whatever you think the statistics tell you. But I guess the acid test to how good he is, will be where he moves on to next if and when we get relegated. Will it be United or will it be back to Blackpool? I know where I'd place my money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
tonyh29 Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 I'd say he was playing more than one division above his ability 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DelboyVilla Posted January 29, 2013 Share Posted January 29, 2013 Give up football? That's the best idea you've had yet... Bannan is the one player, actually alongside Stephen Ireland, who is clearly disliked by a majority on the terraces and there is still very much a consensus that he is playing in a division above his ability. There is no 'used to be' about it. No stats have changed anything, I've watched him with my own eyes in almost every game this season and he's total crap whatever you think the statistics tell you. But I guess the acid test to how good he is, will be where he moves on to next if and when we get relegated. Will it be United or will it be back to Blackpool? I know where I'd place my money. 100% agree no amount of stats can take away the fact that he has been shite for most of the season. I too prefer actually trust what I see on the pitch compared to stats thought up by a bunch of nerds that don't understand football! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TrentVilla Posted January 29, 2013 Moderator Share Posted January 29, 2013 It terms of passing, he might have been "very poor throughout the year" but that standard is still better than many other PL players. There used to be the idea Bannan was "Championship - at best"... the statistics don't show that. And if you think Bannan's too lightweight for the Premier League, the Championship is arguably even more physical, so how would he handle that? You might as well tell him to give up football. In terms of everything he has been very poor throughout the year. Your stats don't prove he is better than anyone, they are just stats and as NV has shown without context they are meaningless. You stats don't show anything, they certainly don't show Bannan is too good for the championship just as they don't prove he is a world class crosser of the ball. I do think he is too lightweight for the PL and I don't think he is good enough for the PL, I don't much care how he would handle the Championship because hopefully we won't be in it next season but he should be, Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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